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HI, Slpianoproject,

I'm like you, but if I have the sheet music in front of me, I can play 5 or 6 pieces well enough for friends or family. My problem is memorizing and keeping it memorized. I think it takes a lot of time to memorize a piece and keep it in your memory. I was complaining to my teacher about the same thing recently--I don't have pieces memorized to play somewhere for someone.

I've played some of the same pieces as you, so we might be at about the same level. I've been trying to work on technique, though, and a good way to learn technique is to work through a number of pieces. So, I think that's why my teacher kept pushing me to learn more pieces.

You listed 10 pieces in about 1 1/2 years, and you said that you sometimes skip days at the piano. That's a lot of pieces if you don't have practice time every day. At least for me to learn 10 pieces like you listed, I have to put in 1-2 hours a day everyday at the piano. When I don't have as much time, I let my teacher know, and I don't make as much progress learning newer pieces.

I'd like to take more time to work on my older pieces because when I do work on them again, they are easier, and I think I'd have an easier time memorizing them at this point since they're a bit easier for me to play.

Good luck, and keep up the work. Don't get discouraged. You are probably learning a lot of technique. Maybe you could take a break from new pieces sometime and really work on one or two of your pieces to try to keep them in your memory.

Kathy

Hi, Derulux,
This is a very helpful post!

You mention that you should play a piece until you can't play it wrong, and I see that this would help immensely. I am still working on Pathetique 2nd movement like that, and your previous advice to me is helping a lot! Thanks!!!

Like you said, many of us learn pieces too quickly before going onto the next piece. I always feel like I have to work on a number of pieces to please my teacher, but I do think that is helping my technique a lot, though. I just keep wishing for more time to keep polishing my older pieces.

I think my teacher assigns pieces that are quite hard for me, too, because it pushes me to learn a lot, but then I can't really play it well for someone, which gets frustrating. But, when I go back to it, I know I've improved a lot because it's easier.

When I request to work on a piece, my teacher has sometimes said that it's too easy, and I told her that if it's a bit too easy, then I can really work on phrasing, dynamics, and playing it musically! I don't want to always struggle so much that I can't play it well. It's such a fine balance to choose the right pieces.

When you go back to a piece to play it in your mind, isn't it easier to do that at the piano? I could never do it in my mind, but at the piano, I can find my way though a piece somewhat when I haven't played it in awhile.

Thanks, again, for all your helpful advice, here and at the Members Recording at Pianists Corner.
Kathy

Kayvee,
Hope this isn't too off-topic, but you mentioned that there are much better methods than John Thompson, which is what I learned from when I was a kid.

Could you mention which better method you like? I was thinking of using Alfred's piano course when I teach my young grandkids to play. I'm buying them a digital piano for Christmas.

Thank you!
Kathy

Thats exactly the advice i was looking for! I have to admit there is very few pieces (if at all) that i could play without having a chance of going wrong for a couple notes here and there. I record my performances when i get a piece done and usually i have to get through 4-5 times (sometimes more) before im satisfied enough with the performance to upload it. You make me realize i might have to work more on a piece once i consider it done...

I'ld like to know how you do it personally (till you cant go wrong). Is it through repetition over and over again? Going back to a slower tempo? Varying the rhythm on hard passages till its 100% perfect?

As for below or above my level, i feel like i'm in the middle of alot of repertoire at the moment technically. Some pieces that at first sight looks easy to me end up being harder than it seems and sometimes i surprise myself learning a though passage way easier than i thought. I still have alot to learn and learning pieces slightly above my level helps me get better. Its disapointing to know it might be the reason i have trouble keeping them memorized after i finally pull it off!




Its the way i improve my technique too. My teacher tried to make me practice technical exercises and i find it so boring. I've done some but most of the time i take on piano is learning new pieces. As for the 10 pieces in 1 year and a half well... some of them are on the easy side you have to admit compared to others... thats why i've been able to pull it off. Most of the pieces i learn is pieces i like. Like you said its hard to find a good balance between not too hard, too easy and that i like to listen to.

You can see my recording on the October piano bar thread on here. Its a very nice piece to learn and im pretty sure you can pull it off! As for other songs without words i've semi-learned Op 19 no.1 (working on other stuff atm) and i swear one day i'll do Op.30 no. 6 (just never took the time to do it). Those pieces are the ones i particularly like.

People are different when it comes to memorization. Probably for some people the problem is that the pieces are too hard. But it is not necessarily so. I forget things very fast if I don't need them/think about them regularly. And this applies to everything in life, not just piano pieces. I forget events and names also, even people that I have known for years. My brain seems to erase things quite well when they are not needed on a regular basis or at least stack them behind so many walls that I cannot access them. It's either the file system or the hard drive itself that is faulty

I play both easy and difficult pieces and I forget them all just as quickly. I do remember melodies and segments of music quite easily if I get a hint, but I can't remember how things start. It is frustrating, but that's the way my mind works.

I can get the pieces back and it is always great to do that, because in the meantime my tecnique has become better and I find them much more rewarding to play. Every time I take on an older piece it takes a little less time to memorize it again. Returning the pieces to memory takes some time though and right now I don't have that time. My teacher pushes me forward and that's fine. The number one thing now is to get the playing into order. I can build repertoire when I retire

To the original question:
I can only play cold from memory the pieces that I am working at the moment(1-3)and a couple of nice ones that I keep practicing regularly. But even a week without playing a piece is long enough that I start getting blackouts while playing.

Reading is not a solution, despite all my efforts I have given up trying to sight play anything complicated. My problems are deeper than just learning to understand the music that is written and playing it because I can actually do that when the conditions are exactly right. Unfortunately they mostly are not. So I decided to just see if I could gradually build some routine in reading when learning new pieces (and get new glasses asap).

No, it doesn't really take much time. Each Saturday and Sunday I play two or three times through four or five pieces from my repertoire. I cycle through my list every few months that way. Not all the pieces are 'performance' ready but kept in memory.

I work on new material Monday to Friday but I work up one repertoire piece (or a section of it) over that week. When it's done, that piece will be good for several months. I've not been back at the piano long enough to complete my first cycle yet (I returned last Christmas after 15 years away).

It takes longer to learn to play a piece well than it does to memorise it and the two objectives complement each other well so there's no downside to memorising everything I play or practise.

I have over sixty pieces that I keep on my list from bagatelles to full sonatas plus some unlisted pieces (Anna Magdalena, Clementi sonatinas etc) all of which are memorised.

Many of my pieces are in permanent memory and I can practise most of them away from the piano. When I returned to the piano last Christmas I was still able to play around a dozen pieces straight off and built up to two dozen pieces at the end of the first two weeks. Another two dozen or so were restored within a couple of months without having to go back to the score.


Once you've got a wrong note in there it's very difficult to get it right again. The best approach is to get it right from the very start. I work on only as much as I can memorise in a few minutes and practise slowly enough that I don't get wrong notes. At thinking speed the sound is very slow to a listener but the brain is fully engaged and active. Once it's mechanically sound I can let the tempo come up to me rather try to play faster; that way I stay in control. Once I'm at half tempo I control it with a metronome/drum machine.

It's a difficult approach because it needs discipline and patience, but half speed is still much faster than thinking speed and once you're over that it really is only a matter of time.

I used to worry about "learning my mistakes" a lot, but not anymore. I think here is actually the only benefit I can think of from having a short lived memory: I forget the mistakes as well. Sometimes I have learned and memorized the piece well for my lesson but misread a note that sounds ok. When my teacher points it out I can easily change it. I also have never had much trouble changing fingering after already learning the piece if I figure out a better one. The old one disappears from my mind as soon as I get the new one memorized.

None. Greensleeves when I was a kid. I can play some stuff by ear but not memorize. (Another of the many many reasons I could never be a concert pianist)

@Playagain: I would recommend Piano Adventures, using all the books for each level wherever possible all the way through until the end of the series (if you aren't necessarily a piano teacher, which it seems like you aren't). That way, you have a tested and logical progression. Also, the more material the students see, the better, which is why I suggest all the books. However, as always, a qualified piano teacher is the best way to go from the very beginning.

--

Not sure if this is the 'best' method, but one thing I really like right now is the Keys to Stylistic Mastery/Artistic Performance OR First Impression books (or both!)

Keys to Artistic Performance, Book 1, Book 2, & Book 3
Keys to Stylistic Mastery, Book 1, Book 2 & Book 3
(To be used together...maybe one right after the other; Keys to Stylistic Mastery 1, Keys to Artistic Performance 1, Keys to Stylistic Mastery 2, etc etc etc)

http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/series/First-Impressions/946
Goes A -> B -> C -> 1-6 (with accompanying theory books for A, B, C, and 1-3)

What I like about both of these series is that they come with helpful hints and study suggestions which are invaluable to someone studying without a teacher. Others are Succeeding with the Masters and...I can't actually remember them all off the top of my head. But if you're done with method books, this is probably the best path. And I think anyone who's done one level, maybe better off with two, is ready for these series.

As for the best method book, that depends on your goals.

Great, I'm glad it was on-par with your needs and at least a little useful.

Methodology can vary from person to person, playing on their strengths and against their weaknesses, and relying on the tools that individual has to accomplish their goals. With that in mind, I will try to discuss concepts that may be useful. One disclaimer to this process is that I don't use it for sight-reading. If I'm sight-reading, I pick up the piece, put it on the stand and start playing. This is the method I use to "study" a piece.

When I select a piece, chances are I've heard it before. I usually select pieces I enjoy listening to, so it is rare that I approach a piece I've never heard. However, if I haven't heard it, I do try to listen to it as early into the process as possible.

When I first look at the piece, I give it a read through before I touch the keys. Usually just a quick glance to get a feel for the piece. I want to know where it's going and what my fingers might be doing, what may repeat, and what looks technically challenging. I build a mental conception of how I want to approach the piece.

When I touch the keys, I give the piece a couple run-throughs. Usually 2-3. I find out what's going to go into my fingers easily, and what's going to take work.

Next, I work on the sections that will need the most work. I smooth these out before I do anything else. (I do this first because, if I don't do it now, I won't do it later, and it will take that much longer to learn the piece.)

At this point, I will piece-meal the entire piece together at a comfortable pace/tempo. I am really not concerned with tempo at this point, so that is why I use "pace".

If there are any rough patches, I smooth them out now.

If I don't have the piece memorized by now (rare), I now work on committing it to memory.

Once memorized, I work on interpretation and bringing the piece up to speed. Once at speed, I typically go back to about 60-70% speed and stay there. I perform at 100%, but rarely practice at 100%.


The most important thing to remember, for me, is this: I don't worry about "random" mistakes, but I make sure not to practice a "real" mistake. The difference is this: if I play it a hundred times, and it flubs once, that's a "random" mistake. If I play it 4-5 times in a row, and hit the same rough patch or wrong notes, that's a mistake I need to iron out so that I don't practice it wrong. I think that "random" mistakes are easy to correct/forget. But once a "real" mistake is learned, practiced, and committed to mental and muscle memory, it is excruciatingly difficult to get rid of it. The better your technique, and the more "freely" you play, the easier it is to get rid of, but it still means time spent correcting mistakes instead of progressing.


To try to address one of your questions more specifically, if a section is going particularly poorly, I take a look at the mechanical problems that contribute to the issue. Once the mechanical issues are worked out, the passage is fixed. But I don't typically vary rhythms or repeat and repeat a mistake until it miraculously fixes itself. I identify the mechanical cause of the mistake and fix that. Usually the cause of a missed note starts anywhere from one to several notes before the actual missed note. Identifying where is crucial to fixing the problem.

Here's the worst part about a "learned" mistake: it can affect more than one piece. If, for example, you are working on Mozart's Sonata in C, and collapse your hand during the scales, so that you do not play them evenly, then in every other piece featuring those scales, you will do the same thing. If you "brush" over the broken-octave melody notes in Liszt's Hungarian Rhapsody No 2, you will have difficulty with the opening of La Campanella. And so on. So, it is critically important to consider a "learned" mistake an error in technique, and not necessarily a problem with that particular piece.

Thanks so much, Kayvee! This is so helpful. My teacher has used Piano Adventures for her beginning students, but I hadn't heard of the other books--I'll look into all of them! Thanks!

Yes, a qualified and experienced teacher would be best, but they don't have any money for lessons, so I figured it's better than not taking lessons. Hopefully if I get them started, they could someday continue on with a really good teacher.

Thank you very much!
Kathy

Derulux,

I agree that it often is also a problem with the technique, not just with a fragment. Nevertheless, it is hard to recognise it as such if you are a beginner, since the pattern is new and of course it first looks like just a hard figure. Once you are at the place of recognising the technical issues, you probably are already an advanced player?

The pieces that I pick are usually way way beyond what I can sight read. In fact I can barely sight read beginner pieces. Therefore my first run throughs are excruciatingly slow and full of errors. This makes the whole process a lot more cumbersome, since I then first have to fix these, memorize it partially after a few slow runs, and then fix more as I can't also memorize dynamics and speed in the first memorization round. My teacher always suggest to bring in as much as possible right away but if you do that my experience is that you start making much more errors that way.

Definitely. I think the road to transitioning from a beginner to an intermediate player begins with being able to identify technical issues, and the road to becoming a more advanced player begins with learning to address those technical issues. The sooner one starts down the road, the more quickly one is capable of advancing.

Learning to play the most advanced and technically demanding pieces requires that one be able to identify where they are having difficulty, and then be able to address that difficulty. This is the greatest difference between a beginner and a more advanced pianist. (IMO) I think one of the keys to learning to identify technical issues is beginning to understand that if you are playing it wrong consistently, it is almost always a technical issue. A missed note has nothing to do with the location of the note, and everything to do with how you are moving your hands to get to and from that note. Thus, the note is never the problem. One's technique is.