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HOW ARE YOU EVER GONNA GET A STICKER?

Those are actually really bad analogies. Tricycles make eventually riding bicycles easier by design. Cursive doesn't necessarily make print easier.

There are equally efficient systems in use today, always evolving and always becoming more simple to use. It's the same with our language - we simplify because it works. It also has a lot to do with style. (Un)fortunately, cursive isn't seen as 'cool' anymore. Personally, I'm of mind that we should switch back to the Gothic Blackletter script - but no one tends to agree with me on that. Culturally, as a whole, the Latin script was for use (compared to the stroke importance of Chinese, flow markings of Arabic, and the ideographs of Egyptian).

To the OP, sorry for hi-jacking this thread. In the end, my point was: handwriting can really inhibit students if age and gender are to be considered, so that is always something to consider! (where workbooks and the question about whether handwriting was what was holding the student back were brought up)

I personally don't need cursive writing because I type just about everything. The only time I have to write stuff by hand is when I evaluate students for CM or judge piano competitions. And even then I print my comments. Neatly.

That's the kind of thing that I was looking for. Of course the very first step is for the student to know which note is G corresponding to the G on the piano if you're doing it that way. So I imagine that you would introduce those notes along the same lines in the beginning.

I sincerely hope they are bad - I was striving for ridiculous. Of course we make lots of special allowances for children. And then children develop, and grow up, and graduate to adult-style things - hopefully even methods of communication.

And cursive is an 'adult-style' method of communication that is somehow better than print? Must be why it's still used by a majority of adults today that is clearly a script with inherent value over print.

Oh... wait...

It isn't about making allowances for children. It's a utility. Why would you want something that isn't as easy to use? I wouldn't.

When dealing with youngsters one has to have enough weight that when you sit on 'em they can't get away. And if you don't have enough weight you have to gain it ... prestissimo!

I'll bet that Nannerl Mozart knew how to correct her little brother when he needed it.

KV,

KeyString has been waiting patiently to get back on topic, Landorrano is already there, and I want to join them. But before leaving this sub-discussion, and since you actually seem serious about weeding out remaining pockets of cursive writing, allow me to respond in a rare moment of seriousness.

For many of us, writing, handwriting, cursive handwriting is far more than a simple utility. At its least, it is a method of communication; at its best, a palate for high individual expression; and most of the time, an enjoyable activity. For me it is frequently a means to solidifying ideas. In many cases, one’s handwriting is a window into their personality.

You are obviously a learning and thinking individual. It is my sincere hope that you will give some further thought to the benefits of the PROCESS of learning cursive writing, and to the ACT of drawing one’s thoughts on paper.

We already have way, way too many young adults who have to pause momentarily, and then move their lips while signing their names. Please do not add to their numbers.

Now . . . . . where’s my quill?

By not actively teaching, I can afford the luxury of being a fence-sitter between these two approaches.

The one that I sort of improvised above comes at theory with a rather oblique approach. KeyString and I like this because it directly relates the rudiments to the sound. It also attempts to hook the student before he realizes he is munching on bait.

I enjoy very much Landorrano’s solution because of its honesty and directness. No getting around it – if one is to really learn theory, there is study and serious effort involved. Eventually, the sugar-coating has to disappear.

In the end, our best thinking, and finest suggestions will have very little to do with the success, or failure, of Nannerl Mozart’s student learning much music theory. If he is destined to become a good musician, he will learn it. If not, then no.

Hi LoPresti,

I enjoyed your post.

This reminds me of some notes I took from a lecture (online) by pianist James Boyk: "Your hand is the communication link between your conscious and your unconscious...some things come out through the hands on the keyboard...The unconscious communicates with the hands somehow."

He was speaking of piano playing, but I think there is the same link for writing and I therefore highly value keeping a daily journal. I, too, think there is something special about writing, and not just typing (although it also has merit).

One nutty thing I've heard of is a teacher telling a child NOT to write in cursive because "We don't learn cursive until 3rd grade". Pitiful! I'm all for the speed and revelations of cursive writing. But if someone really has a disability and significant efforts have only resulted in frustration, then I can see a keyboard as a helpful tool in place of writing.

I wonder if you were remembering my story, where I was forbidden to teach cursive because it was not in the curriculum guidelines until grade 3, back when I was a teacher. Some of my students had come up to me and asked to learn it. I "showed" them how to do cursive writing as a fun activity, step by step, and that's how we got around "don't teach it".

One boy had a strong learning disability and had already repeated both grades one and two. The special ed consultant told me that he NEEDED cursive writing. The act of linking each word through connective strokes allowed him to see the letters of a word as belonging to a unit, while print didn't give that distinction. He was already coming up with a device of his own through dots and strokes which was almost identical to a teaching system for French immersion called Le Sablier. And here the answer was under our noses the whole time: cursive writing.

Hi Ann,

Any good jazz player, regardless of instrument, can attest to this subconscious-direct-to-the-hands (or to-the-embrochure) connection. I am really glad you posted this quote. I, too, keep a real journal. How else can I remember anything?

Ed

Yes, notes help to refresh memory.

That reminds me of an email I received 6 years ago from a community college saying they reviewed my application and asked me to come in for an interview. I figured it must be spam because I had no recollection of this community college even existing, much less filling out a job application. Then I looked back through my journals and discovered I had been annoyed with my job situation and responded late at night by filling out an online application a few months earlier.

P.S. I'm glad you appreciate the quotes.

keystring, I would have given you credit for it had I remembered where I heard it. Yes, it must have been from you.

Thanks for the plug but I am not certain that you mean the same as me. I don't think that the difficulty before Nannerl is how to get some "theory" across. It seems to me that her problem is how to handle a whingy and tantrum-throwing 12 year-old.

By the way, in the southern hemisphere do you really spell whiny with a "g" whingy? Or is that an error and you meant to write "whiny"? Or maybe "wingy"?

Verb: to whinge (pronounced winj) = to complain persistently and annoyingly, usually in a voice which has something of a whine about it. (my definition) I think I might have spelled whingy as whingey, myself.

What's more: pronounced "winj"!

Oh, but I do mean the same as you - exactly the same.

By the way, did the student in question really age 2 years while this thread was developing? (My, how tempus fugit!) Perhaps he has out-grown those tantrums by now?

In my opinion writing out notes by hand is good for everyone. Everyone.

Kids should be drawing the G-clef by hand as early as possible, as well as the F-clef ... and this beautifully. I consider it extremely important. This is elementary activity, or fundamental, in the sense that it is the laying of a foundation for building upon. Through the act of writing with the hand the student takes possesion of the elements of musical culture, exactly as says LoPresti, and there is no other way to achieve that so fully and there will never be another way. The hand is basic to human existence, on an individual level the education of the hand is a motor of development of intelligence.

Computers are great, long live 'em. But there are important things that a kid needs to know that he cannot learn on a computer. A kid needs to learn to write, and to write well and with a nice hand, it is a necessary element in the formation of his mind and his character. A kid who doesn't is missing something important in his education. In my opinion it is a handicap and he will be marked by that throughout his life. He may not be aware of this handicap but then people often aren't, ignorance is bliss!

Learning to play a musical instrument is another important knowledge that cannot be gained on a computer.

I am not of the opinion that "theory" should necessarily be closely related to the students current activity at the piano or even to the piano. I think that a kid who studies, for example, the flute, should learn early on to read and write in the f-clef even though it is certain that he will not have the occasion any time soon to use that knowledge, maybe even never in his life. All kids (and adults too) should learn the alto clef, the soprano clef, and so on.

What I liked is that you began with music and moved out to theory. I don't necessarily see it as oblique or even hooking the student with bait. I considered this the first time after I had studied my first level of theory, because I was bothered that it was all on paper and something seemed to be missing. When I joined PianoWorld there were several teachers who seemed to find it important to stress that theory first get taught hands on. There were some various approaches of tying very early theory discover with things on paper and some of these approaches were creative. What struck me is how important they found the concrete stage to be. It was not bait, but the substance of the teaching. It seemed an interesting thing to explore.