Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
What's Hot!!
Hurricane Irma & Our Piano Friends!
--------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Tuning a Piano
How to Tune Pianos
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2017
(ad)
4th Finger Enigma Resolved!
Schumann's 4th Finger Enigma Resolved!
Who's Online Now
63 registered members (Alex Hutor, assi, amad23, ando, AprilE, 16 invisible), 1,671 guests, and 1 spider.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#1985792 - 11/12/12 05:48 PM Piano Buyer / Larry Fine  
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 74
frog97 Offline
Full Member
frog97  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 74
West side of the Globe
Anyone walked into a piano store for this first time carrying Piano buyer or anything from Larry Fine etc.
What was the reaction, did it help to negotiate?
Any interesting conversations?
Regards,

(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#1985798 - 11/12/12 05:55 PM Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: frog97]  
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 478
Deerwood Dad Offline
Full Member
Deerwood Dad  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 478
Minneapolis
I did when I was looking at Bostons and Kawais, and the people who were trying to tell me that Boston's were more like Steinways than Kawais quality-wise (even when I told them I thought both Bostons and Kawais were terrific) were dismissive of Larry. They also didn't like the way their Essex and Christifori lines were dissed by Larry. Other dealers were happy I was taking time to educate myself. Best wishes on your search, and by all means, take your time.


Mason & Hamlin A (2006); Yamaha P140
#1985823 - 11/12/12 06:46 PM Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: frog97]  
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 81
bbuckis Offline
Full Member
bbuckis  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 81
I once mentioned the Piano Buyer publication at my local Yamaha dealer.
The sales person laughed and said, "That's written by a piano technician.
What does he know. "



The only thing preventing me from owning a Steinway & Sons produced piano, is Steinway & Sons Customer Service. They should work on that.

Fortunately the piano I want the most is sold by Steinway & Sons!
Unfortunately the piano I want the most is only sold by Steinway & Sons.
#1985838 - 11/12/12 07:30 PM Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: bbuckis]  
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 20
Symon Says Offline
Full Member
Symon Says  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 20
Alberta, Canada
I based my offer to the dealer on Larry's SMP minus an additional 15% (as a starting point) which ended up upsetting him somewhat. Apparently it was a low offer based on market conditions but we got past it and worked out a deal. Its definitely a tool in your toolbox, despite what your dealer may think.


Hailun 178
(ad ) MusicNotes.com
sheet music search
#1985843 - 11/12/12 07:37 PM Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: frog97]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,874
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Steve Cohen  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,874
Maryland/DC/No. VA
We prominantly display and often lend out copies of Piano Buyer.

Our website states on several pages that we adhere the the price ranges denoted in Piano Buyer.


Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.
#1985924 - 11/12/12 11:25 PM Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: frog97]  
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 643
Chopinlover49 Offline
500 Post Club Member
Chopinlover49  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 643
A very important piano dealer in our area has a copy prominently displayed and allows all who visit the store to look at it. I don't think it hurts his bottom line at all. He carries Bechsteins, Bosendoerfers, Faziolis, Mason-Hamlins, Schimmels, Estonias, and even rebuilt and used Steinways and other top brands. When shopping, I have never brought a copy with me, but I have read and re-read it many times and learned a lot. It certainly didn't hurt when I was shopping for my piano.

#1986033 - 11/13/12 08:41 AM Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: bbuckis]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,690
Rich Galassini Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Rich Galassini  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,690
Philadelphia/South Jersey
We also display and make copies of Piano Buyer available to our customers, and have since the very first Piano Book came out in 1989 (??).

Independent information is never a bad thing when making a decision on something as important as a piano.

Originally Posted by bbuckis
I once mentioned the Piano Buyer publication at my local Yamaha dealer.
The sales person laughed and said, "That's written by a piano technician.
What does he know. "


First, the book is not, and never has been, written in a vacuum. This is not just Mr. Fine's personal opinion (unless he states that particular observation is, in fact, his personal opinion).

I would be more inclined to say, "He is a salesperson. What does HE know?" smile

*(No offense meant to the many well informed and well educated salespeople here on this forum)


Rich Galassini
Cunningham Piano Co.
Phila, Pa.
(215) 991-0834 direct line
rich@cunninghampiano.com
Check out the Science Channel's "How Its Made" featuring our piano restoration:
http://www.cunninghampiano.com/how-its-made/
#1986061 - 11/13/12 10:29 AM Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: frog97]  
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 7,439
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014
Minnesota Marty  Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Joined: May 2012
Posts: 7,439
Rochester MN
Do any piano stores offer "A&D Piano Buyer" or "The Piano Book" for sale in the store? Having the books available for purchase could be very helpful to those who are in the market for a piano or a digital.

After all, not all shoppers visit Piano World before shopping and have the opportunity to learn that the books are even available.


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
#1986065 - 11/13/12 10:38 AM Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: Minnesota Marty]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,874
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Steve Cohen  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,874
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Originally Posted by Minnesota Marty
Do any piano stores offer "A&D Piano Buyer" or "The Piano Book" for sale in the store? Having the books available for purchase could be very helpful to those who are in the market for a piano or a digital.

After all, not all shoppers visit Piano World before shopping and have the opportunity to learn that the books are even available.


Since Piano Buyer is available free online, very few dealers stock it for sale. The Piano Book, while still available, much of its content is rather dated.


Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.
#1986071 - 11/13/12 11:01 AM Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: Steve Cohen]  
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 7,439
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014
Minnesota Marty  Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Joined: May 2012
Posts: 7,439
Rochester MN
Steve,

I agree with what you say, however, how do shoppers learn about the books or the fact that they are available online? PB certainly doesn't have the same visibility as "Consumer Reports." I don't think that I'm alone in preferring a printed volume for self-education and research before making a major purchase.



Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
#1986082 - 11/13/12 11:35 AM Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: Minnesota Marty]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,874
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Steve Cohen  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,874
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Originally Posted by Minnesota Marty
Steve,

I agree with what you say, however, how do shoppers learn about the books or the fact that they are available online? PB certainly doesn't have the same visibility as "Consumer Reports." I don't think that I'm alone in preferring a printed volume for self-education and research before making a major purchase.


Even though I have no financial interest, far be it from me to discourage anyone from ordering the print edition (at www.pianobuyer.com). wink

Most shoppers find out about PianoBuyer through organic search results from the major search engines, or right here on the Piano Forum. It is also recommended on the website of many technicians (including the PTG), dealers and teachers.



Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.
#1986154 - 11/13/12 01:26 PM Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: Steve Cohen]  
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 558
Guapo Gabacho Offline
500 Post Club Member
Guapo Gabacho  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 558
Rio Grande Valley of Texas
Originally Posted by Steve Cohen
The Piano Book, while still available, much of its content is rather dated.


It isn't outdated for those shopping the used market.

#1986287 - 11/13/12 07:15 PM Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: frog97]  
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,288
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Norbert  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,288
Surrey, B.C.
Like all good books, Piano Buyer is highly informative but can also sometimes transpire to confuse.

All the books in the world don't replace the discovery of a product's innate nature such as a musical instrument.

It is something shoppers for such item will have to discover themselves just as most shoppers in Europe and other countries have always done.

A 'book' also doesn't take into consideration professional ethics of local brand representation, the companies behind it.

Nor does it things like the quality of the business one happens to be dealing with.

These intangibles are sometimes as much or even more important the the product itself.

The problem is that many buyers often don't play themselves and have a reluctance to make decisions for themselves.

Instead they rely on certain others, be this a teacher, a friend, neighbor or "book".

In this regard Piano Buyer is certainly a valuable resource but IMHO it is as easy making a "mistake" or at least not "the optimal purchase" - than without it.

It is often the irony of arming oneself with all kinds of knowledge - especially concerning such things as musical instruments - that in the end 'decisions' are and remain a largely personal thing.

Not really totally different from many other big ticket shopping items in life.

Just seemingly a bit more difficult perhaps...

Norbert

Last edited by Norbert; 11/13/12 07:27 PM.

www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642 www.eliteheritagepianos.ca Edmonton, Alta dealers for Estonia,
Brodmann 780-405-8908
#1986290 - 11/13/12 07:25 PM Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: Norbert]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,569
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
pianoloverus  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,569
New York City
Originally Posted by Norbert
A 'book' also doesn't take into consideration professional ethics of local brand representation, the companies behind it or things like the quality of business one happens to be dealing with.
Of course it doesn't. That has nothing to do with the purpose of the book.

Originally Posted by Norbert
The problem is that many buyers often don't play themselves and have a reluctance to make decision for themselves. Instead they rely on certain others, be this a teacher, a friend, neighbor or "book".
Which is a 100% reasonable thing to do. And reasonable people will continue doing it.




Last edited by pianoloverus; 11/13/12 07:30 PM.
#1986292 - 11/13/12 07:29 PM Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: frog97]  
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,288
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Norbert  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,288
Surrey, B.C.
Quote
Of course it doesn't. That has nothing to do with the purpose of the book.


Exactly.

A buyer's concern goes beyond that - it concerns "real life" situations.

Quote
Which is a 100% reasonable thing to do. And reasonable people will continue doing it.


It may be *reasonable* but not necessary fruitful or productive.

5 different opinions don't exactly make achieving one's own any easier.

My basic point is anybody can buy whatever they like or is recommended by whatever source.

For those who don't play or are not personally tuned into tone and touch of an instrument, none of it makes much difference.

For those who "do" - it's just about everything.

Norbert

Last edited by Norbert; 11/13/12 08:12 PM.

www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642 www.eliteheritagepianos.ca Edmonton, Alta dealers for Estonia,
Brodmann 780-405-8908
#1986395 - 11/14/12 12:17 AM Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: bbuckis]  
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 21,546
Mark_C Online content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Mark_C  Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 21,546
New York
Originally Posted by bbuckis
I once mentioned the Piano Buyer publication at my local Yamaha dealer.
The sales person laughed and said, "That's written by a piano technician.
What does he know. "

ha

Among other things about that, Larry is actually a fine pianist.

#1986400 - 11/14/12 12:40 AM Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: Minnesota Marty]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 6,177
Piano World Offline
Piano World  Offline



Joined: May 2001
Posts: 6,177
Parsonsfield, ME (orig. Nahant...
Originally Posted by Minnesota Marty
Do any piano stores offer "A&D Piano Buyer" or "The Piano Book" for sale in the store? Having the books available for purchase could be very helpful to those who are in the market for a piano or a digital.

After all, not all shoppers visit Piano World before shopping and have the opportunity to learn that the books are even available.


Ah, perhaps not.

But nearly six million of them did last year (and that's unique visitors, not "hits" or "page views").
I don't know too many print publications that can claim six million readers :-)

In fact I don't know too many (or any other) online piano sites that can legitimately claim anywhere near as many visitors.

Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread, just pretty proud of what PW has become.



- Frank B.
Founder / Owner / Host
www.PianoWorld.com
www.PianoSupplies.com
Find Us On:
Facebook.com/PianoWorldDotCom
ProRecord.info
Twitter.com/PianoWorld
www.youtube.com/PianoWorldDotCom
www.linkedin.com/in/pianoworld
Skype: PianoWorldDotCom
My Keyboards:
Estonia L-190 w/ ProRecord, Yamaha P-80, Estey 1895 Pump Organ, Harpsichord (kit), Clavichord (kit), Bilhorn Telescope Organ c 1880
-------------------------
It's Fun To Play the Piano ... PLEASE Pass It On!
Invite everyone you know to join our piano forums!


#1986514 - 11/14/12 08:24 AM Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: Piano World]  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,614
ClsscLib Offline

Platinum Supporter until Jan 02 2013
ClsscLib  Offline

Platinum Supporter until Jan 02 2013


Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,614
Northern VA, U.S.
As well you should be, Frank!

Thanks for all you do for this wonderful community.


[Linked Image] [Linked Image][Linked Image]

"People may say I can't sing, but no one can ever say I didn't sing."

-- Florence Foster Jenkins
#1986544 - 11/14/12 09:30 AM Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: Norbert]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,569
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
pianoloverus  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,569
New York City
Originally Posted by Norbert
Quote
Of course it doesn't. That has nothing to do with the purpose of the book.


Exactly.

A buyer's concern goes beyond that - it concerns "real life" situations.
Your original post made it sound like not including a discussion of the quality of the dealer was something missing from the book and this is not the case.

Originally Posted by Norbert
Quote
Which is a 100% reasonable thing to do. And reasonable people will continue doing it.


It may be *reasonable* but not necessary fruitful or productive. 5 different opinions don't exactly make achieving one's own any easier.For those who don't play or are not personally tuned into tone and touch of an instrument, none of it makes much difference.
No approach is guaranteed to be fruitful.

Those who don't play or play only a little or who are not extremely familiar with the different possibilities of tone/touch still want to make an informed decision. They do not want to be dissatisfied later on when they may become more able to evaluate tone and touch. That's why they often ask for help at Piano World or consult the Piano Buyer or those who they think are knowledgeable. The PB in particular offer a degree of objectivity very hard to find in a showroom.

It's absolutely reasonable to do this and it is, in fact, a very good idea to proceed this way.

#1986703 - 11/14/12 06:11 PM Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: frog97]  
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,031
schwammerl Offline
2000 Post Club Member
schwammerl  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,031
Belgium
One of the OP's questions was:

Quote
did it help to negotiate?


Before you start you need to know what you want to negotiate.

If it simply means price negotiation (in the U.S.) the book will certainly help as it gives a good initial orientation into the piano market and the pricing structure (or rather the lack of it).

However this is far from what is 'pinao buying' about.

The book will not elp you acquiring or negotiating the paino that is best for you because theis book or any other written or electronic resource lacks indeed:

Quote
A 'book' also doesn't take into consideration professional ethics of local brand representation, the companies behind it.

Nor does it things like the quality of the business one happens to be dealing with.


And
Quote
These intangibles are sometimes as much or even more important the the product itself.
, yes indeed.

It has been quite a while I posted my adagio here on this forum:

'the biggest challenge in the whole buying process is putting toghether a shortlist of brands and dealers you would like to do business with because of whet they stand for'

E.g. there are a few brands I would not buy because of the questionable ethics and there are dealer I would never buy from whatever brand they might represent.

Should there ever be a publication that
Quote
a discussion of the quality of the dealer
I would be the first one to buy a copy. However I am afraid there will never be such a resource of information.
Yhis is something you will have to find out for yourself - unfortunately sometimes experience yourself.

schwammerl.

#1987250 - 11/15/12 10:04 PM Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: frog97]  
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 180
manyhands Offline
Full Member
manyhands  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 180
Md
the book was most helpful in my search for a used piano.
I learned about construction and wide variety of mfg.. No need to take it to the dealer but it served as a basis for my evaluation check list and helped narrow the brands I wanted to play. Thank you Mr Fine and consultants.!


many hands many smiles

Big Mama Yama U1
#1987538 - 11/16/12 05:17 PM Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: frog97]  
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 74
frog97 Offline
Full Member
frog97  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 74
West side of the Globe
I went home for lunch and my wife gave me the mail, the PW books I ordered where there. I can’t wait to dive into them and start reading, I bought on old hard copy and a new supplement to the book for 2012.


Kimball 45' Studio (1st piano)
KORG SP-250
CASIO LK-220
Harrington Grand (rebuilt)
#1987567 - 11/16/12 06:50 PM Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: schwammerl]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,569
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
pianoloverus  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,569
New York City
Originally Posted by schwammerl
One of the OP's questions was:

Quote
did it help to negotiate?


Before you start you need to know what you want to negotiate.

If it simply means price negotiation (in the U.S.) the book will certainly help as it gives a good initial orientation into the piano market and the pricing structure (or rather the lack of it).
When people use "negotiate", I think 99% of the time they mean price. It's really not a complicated concept.


#1987696 - 11/17/12 03:19 AM Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: pianoloverus]  
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,031
schwammerl Offline
2000 Post Club Member
schwammerl  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,031
Belgium
Quote
When people use "negotiate", I think 99% of the time they mean price. It's really not a complicated concept


That may well be so but then it is because those people do not know the difference between bargaining (uni-variant/zero-sum) and negotiating (multi-variant/positive-sum).

When wanting to acquire a piano - a high price ticket object who most people want to keep for a life time - it is more wise to make oneself familiar with the technique of negotiation. It takes some time to learn and master it but it is worth it; that is why diplomats spend years mastering the negotiation technique and why many people should try making oneself familiar with to should they not wish to rum from one buyer remorce to another.

example source : bargaining is not negotiating

schwammerl.

#1987719 - 11/17/12 08:30 AM Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: schwammerl]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,569
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
pianoloverus  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,569
New York City
Originally Posted by schwammerl
Quote
When people use "negotiate", I think 99% of the time they mean price. It's really not a complicated concept


That may well be so but then it is because those people do not know the difference between bargaining (uni-variant/zero-sum) and negotiating (multi-variant/positive-sum).

When wanting to acquire a piano - a high price ticket object who most people want to keep for a life time - it is more wise to make oneself familiar with the technique of negotiation. It takes some time to learn and master it but it is worth it; that is why diplomats spend years mastering the negotiation technique and why many people should try making oneself familiar with to should they not wish to rum from one buyer remorce to another.

example source : bargaining is not negotiating

schwammerl.
Although I will study the article when I have a chance, my first reaction is that very few people, including myself, most piano dealers and, even those who get the best deals on a piano they buy, know what some of the terms you mentioned in your reply mean.

#1987734 - 11/17/12 09:42 AM Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: pianoloverus]  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,614
ClsscLib Offline

Platinum Supporter until Jan 02 2013
ClsscLib  Offline

Platinum Supporter until Jan 02 2013


Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,614
Northern VA, U.S.
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by schwammerl
Quote
When people use "negotiate", I think 99% of the time they mean price. It's really not a complicated concept


That may well be so but then it is because those people do not know the difference between bargaining (uni-variant/zero-sum) and negotiating (multi-variant/positive-sum).

When wanting to acquire a piano - a high price ticket object who most people want to keep for a life time - it is more wise to make oneself familiar with the technique of negotiation. It takes some time to learn and master it but it is worth it; that is why diplomats spend years mastering the negotiation technique and why many people should try making oneself familiar with to should they not wish to rum from one buyer remorce to another.

example source : bargaining is not negotiating

schwammerl.
Although I will study the article when I have a chance, my first reaction is that very few people, including myself, most piano dealers and, even those who get the best deals on a piano they buy, know what some of the terms you mentioned in your reply mean.


If you understand in full the wants, needs, and capacities of all players in the bargaining process, you can work towards a deal that leaves everyone better off than they would be with no deal.


[Linked Image] [Linked Image][Linked Image]

"People may say I can't sing, but no one can ever say I didn't sing."

-- Florence Foster Jenkins
#1988174 - 11/18/12 02:28 PM Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: pianoloverus]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,446
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Derulux  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,446
Philadelphia
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by schwammerl
Quote
When people use "negotiate", I think 99% of the time they mean price. It's really not a complicated concept


That may well be so but then it is because those people do not know the difference between bargaining (uni-variant/zero-sum) and negotiating (multi-variant/positive-sum).

When wanting to acquire a piano - a high price ticket object who most people want to keep for a life time - it is more wise to make oneself familiar with the technique of negotiation. It takes some time to learn and master it but it is worth it; that is why diplomats spend years mastering the negotiation technique and why many people should try making oneself familiar with to should they not wish to rum from one buyer remorce to another.

example source : bargaining is not negotiating

schwammerl.
Although I will study the article when I have a chance, my first reaction is that very few people, including myself, most piano dealers and, even those who get the best deals on a piano they buy, know what some of the terms you mentioned in your reply mean.

I am sure it is something with which you are intrinsically familiar, even if you never bothered to put a "name" to it.

The idea is pretty simple. With a piano:

Bargaining: You are considering charging me "X". I want to pay a lesser value "Y". We work until we either find middle ground or we do not. In the end, what the seller loses (in price), the buyer gains (in savings). This is uni-variant, in that only one variable is considered. It is also zero-sum in that one person wins and the other loses.

Negotiating: You are selling piano "X". We bring into it tuning, regulation, repayment terms, loan/lease options, moving the piano, additional features (Dampp Chaser, etc), re-selling value, additional store credit, a bench, warranty terms, and any other number of variables you may be able to consider. This is multi-variant because there exists more than one variable. It is positive-sum because there is a chance that the buyer may "win" something that costs the seller "nothing", or may be willing to concede something of little costs that makes the seller's life easier.

Most commodity purchases do not have the option of being negotiated. Bargained, yes, but not negotiated. There typically are very few "win-win" variables. However, this poster is saying that if you can find any, you can (and should) change tactics from bargaining to negotiating.

One other key to negotiating: it is not time-bound. In other words, you can't have a one-time, short-lived experience with a seller and expect to be able to negotiate. Quite simply, you're not invested in each other's success long enough to truly equate potential gain. If you were leasing a car with an option to buy, and involving the company's loan department, now you have a longer-term situation in which negotiation can be utilized. But typical short-term and one-time commodity purchases with few selling options do not fall into this category.


Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

Moderated by  Ken Knapp, Piano World 

Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World)
our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, Digital Piano Dolly, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping* on Jansen Artist Piano Benches, Cocoweb Piano Lamps, Hidrau Hydraulic Piano Benches
(*free shipping within contiguous U.S. only)
(ad)
Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq 6 Out now
(ad)
Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restorations and sales
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


New Topics - Multiple Forums
Perzina and weber pianos
by dat77. 09/26/17 02:53 AM
What plugins are he using?
by Shreyansh Agarwal. 09/26/17 01:50 AM
When people think the composer is someone else
by Mark_C. 09/25/17 06:48 PM
Anyone who likes Chopin (Noct 9 opus 1) but intimidated
by piano_primo_1. 09/25/17 05:51 PM
The Fourth
by Goof. 09/25/17 05:18 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums44
Topics182,021
Posts2,660,142
Members88,889
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Check It Out!
There's a lot more to Piano World than just the forums.
Click Here to
Explore The Rest of Piano World!!
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2017 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0