Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!


SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Virtual Sheet Music
Download Sheet Music Instantly
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Sheet Music...
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Modern Piano Moving
Modern Piano Moving
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2017
(ad)
Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restorations and sales
Who's Online Now
107 registered members (Albunea, anotherscott, agraffe, Alexank, Bambers, 17curleyj, 34 invisible), 1,810 guests, and 6 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#1984614 - 11/09/12 01:11 PM Best treatment for slow falling hammers?  
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 65
dracaa Offline
Full Member
dracaa  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 65
I'm not a tech, but I have 5 slow hammers that that fall with excessive friction.

I'm told that lubing the hammer flanges is usually not an option so if that's the case I plan to remove the hammers and take them to a tech to have them repinned.

Would repinning involve replacing the felt bushing as well?

Also I should mention that all 5 slow hammers are on the most commonly played keys, which are C, E, G (as the key of C is played hardest and most often) and I'm curious why.

Do hammers normally slow down through normal wear & tear this way?


Kohler and Campbell skg-600s 5'9 grand (newly acquired)
I'm not a tech but ambitiously learning out of necessity
since I live in the middle of nowhere and getting a tech
to come out here for minor things (that I could and want
to learn to do myself) is prohibitively expensive.
(ad 800)
PTG 2017 Convention
PTG Convention 2017 St Louis
#1984633 - 11/09/12 01:55 PM Re: Best treatment for slow falling hammers? [Re: dracaa]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,489
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member
beethoven986  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,489
Originally Posted by dracaa
I'm told that lubing the hammer flanges is usually not an option


It depends.

Originally Posted by dracaa
so if that's the case I plan to remove the hammers and take them to a tech to have them repinned.


No. Tech comes to your place. You're not a tech, so don't mess with it.

Originally Posted by dracaa
Would repinning involve replacing the felt bushing as well?


Not necessarily. Either way, it's not a big deal.


Originally Posted by dracaa
Do hammers normally slow down through normal wear & tear this way?


No.

#1984678 - 11/09/12 03:42 PM Re: Best treatment for slow falling hammers? [Re: beethoven986]  
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 403
Dan Casdorph Offline
Full Member
Dan Casdorph  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 403
Morgantown, West Virginia
Assuming you are talking about the K&C grand listed in your sig and not a Steinway with teflon bushings, sluggish hammers can usually be eased successfully. First choice is CLP for me. You may also use an alchohol/water mix.

I use a vet syringe, which you can get at most farm supply places as a precision dispenser. A drop on each bushing will either work or not.

Where are you located? Maybe you could buy some CLP thru the mail here or from a tech and try that first. If the hammers are extremely tight, reaming and repinning is probably in order.


Casdorph Piano Service
Morgantown, WV
www.casdorphpiano.com
All pianos are bald ones.
#1984687 - 11/09/12 03:57 PM Re: Best treatment for slow falling hammers? [Re: Dan Casdorph]  
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 65
dracaa Offline
Full Member
dracaa  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 65
I guess I can first try the alcohol water mix. Will a 50/50 mixture of water and isopropryl alcohol work?


Kohler and Campbell skg-600s 5'9 grand (newly acquired)
I'm not a tech but ambitiously learning out of necessity
since I live in the middle of nowhere and getting a tech
to come out here for minor things (that I could and want
to learn to do myself) is prohibitively expensive.
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#1984696 - 11/09/12 04:26 PM Re: Best treatment for slow falling hammers? [Re: dracaa]  
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 24,954
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
BDB  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 24,954
Oakland
Alcohol and water could ruin those joints, if you do not know what you are doing.


Semipro Tech
#1984776 - 11/09/12 09:12 PM Re: Best treatment for slow falling hammers? [Re: dracaa]  
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,539
David Jenson Offline
2000 Post Club Member
David Jenson  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,539
Maine
Since you say you live in the middle of nowhere, the best course might be to take the offending shanks and flanges to a tech for service. Just be sure you've narrowed it down to those components, and that you are thoroughly familiar with how to remove the action without breaking anything.


David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----
#1984788 - 11/09/12 10:16 PM Re: Best treatment for slow falling hammers? [Re: dracaa]  
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,481
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Emmery  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,481
Niagara Region, On. Canada
If they are not falling excessively slow the CLP will likely help. Sometimes its enough, other times its not, or it ends up being temporary fix. Best to ream a bit out of the bushing and repin, not a big job for a tech. If your taking off multiple parts, number them with a pencil so everything goes back where it should. Pay attention to small bits of paper under parts when you remove, these can be there for alignment of travel.


Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region
#1984800 - 11/09/12 10:48 PM Re: Best treatment for slow falling hammers? [Re: dracaa]  
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,359
accordeur Offline
1000 Post Club Member
accordeur  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,359
Québec, Canada
Have you lifted the hammers by hand, with the action out of the piano, not using the key?

Have you checked key easing.

If the most frequently played keys are sluggish, I would be surprised that the flange bushings are the culprits.

Not enough info. You must provide more, videos, pictures.



Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca
#1984805 - 11/09/12 10:57 PM Re: Best treatment for slow falling hammers? [Re: dracaa]  
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 65
dracaa Offline
Full Member
dracaa  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 65
Accprdeur, I did determine that the hammer flange friction is greater for those keys by raising the hammers by hand while the action was pulled out. The bad hammers dont fall as easily to the point where they contact the action.

However, I think I understand your point, in that without raising the hammers manually, it may appear that the action itself may be the culprit since the hammer will not completely come to it's final resting point easily when there is friction in the action assembly.

I'll work on a pic or video if that will help...


Kohler and Campbell skg-600s 5'9 grand (newly acquired)
I'm not a tech but ambitiously learning out of necessity
since I live in the middle of nowhere and getting a tech
to come out here for minor things (that I could and want
to learn to do myself) is prohibitively expensive.
#1984806 - 11/09/12 11:00 PM Re: Best treatment for slow falling hammers? [Re: dracaa]  
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,359
accordeur Offline
1000 Post Club Member
accordeur  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,359
Québec, Canada
Good plan!


Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca
#1984807 - 11/09/12 11:02 PM Re: Best treatment for slow falling hammers? [Re: dracaa]  
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,359
accordeur Offline
1000 Post Club Member
accordeur  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,359
Québec, Canada
And hold the key up with one hand while lifting the hammer with the other.


Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca
#1984808 - 11/09/12 11:07 PM Re: Best treatment for slow falling hammers? [Re: dracaa]  
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,362
Chris Leslie Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Chris Leslie  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,362
Canberra, ACT, Australia
A few weeks ago you determined that low C had a tight flange. What happened to it?


Chris Leslie ARPT
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au
#1984814 - 11/09/12 11:14 PM Re: Best treatment for slow falling hammers? [Re: dracaa]  
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 65
dracaa Offline
Full Member
dracaa  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 65
That low C has still not been fixed. There are 4 other keys like that now (all in the key of C). I did apply a couple swiffs of Elmers slide-all to one, but it didnt have any permanent effect. I could try alcohol (what kind?) and water, or order some protek online.


Kohler and Campbell skg-600s 5'9 grand (newly acquired)
I'm not a tech but ambitiously learning out of necessity
since I live in the middle of nowhere and getting a tech
to come out here for minor things (that I could and want
to learn to do myself) is prohibitively expensive.
#1984817 - 11/09/12 11:23 PM Re: Best treatment for slow falling hammers? [Re: dracaa]  
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 65
dracaa Offline
Full Member
dracaa  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 65
Ok here is a video of that low C key:

http://youtu.be/k5Cwr-FK9bY


Kohler and Campbell skg-600s 5'9 grand (newly acquired)
I'm not a tech but ambitiously learning out of necessity
since I live in the middle of nowhere and getting a tech
to come out here for minor things (that I could and want
to learn to do myself) is prohibitively expensive.
#1984819 - 11/09/12 11:27 PM Re: Best treatment for slow falling hammers? [Re: dracaa]  
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,359
accordeur Offline
1000 Post Club Member
accordeur  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,359
Québec, Canada
Protek or repin for sure. Amazing how a picture or video is worth a thousand words! Thanks and all the best.


Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca
#1984821 - 11/09/12 11:38 PM Re: Best treatment for slow falling hammers? [Re: dracaa]  
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 65
dracaa Offline
Full Member
dracaa  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 65
Any idea on why this hammer slowing is only happening to the most commonly played keys?


Kohler and Campbell skg-600s 5'9 grand (newly acquired)
I'm not a tech but ambitiously learning out of necessity
since I live in the middle of nowhere and getting a tech
to come out here for minor things (that I could and want
to learn to do myself) is prohibitively expensive.
#1984827 - 11/10/12 12:07 AM Re: Best treatment for slow falling hammers? [Re: dracaa]  
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,166
rysowers Offline
3000 Post Club Member
rysowers  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,166
Olympia, WA
I have come across this a few times over the years: Korean pianos with seizing up hammer or damper flanges in the area of the piano where there is the most play. Sometimes I have examined the pins and found they have gotten rough. That's why no amount of lubrication seems to help in some of these cases.

If you are out in the middle of nowhere, you could send the offending hammers to a technician for repinning. Shipping wouldn't be that much. You could use a piece of mylar and a sharpie to mark the string imprints so you can get the hammers back in the exact same postion to avoid tonal problems.


Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net
#1984830 - 11/10/12 12:18 AM Re: Best treatment for slow falling hammers? [Re: rysowers]  
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 65
dracaa Offline
Full Member
dracaa  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 65
So friction from the felt bushing can have that much of an abrasive effect on the metal pins? WOW.

Thanks for your feedback.



Kohler and Campbell skg-600s 5'9 grand (newly acquired)
I'm not a tech but ambitiously learning out of necessity
since I live in the middle of nowhere and getting a tech
to come out here for minor things (that I could and want
to learn to do myself) is prohibitively expensive.
#1984935 - 11/10/12 07:56 AM Re: Best treatment for slow falling hammers? [Re: dracaa]  
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 332
pianolive Offline
Full Member
pianolive  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 332
Europe
Sounds like a piano made by Samick or Young Shang. They often have this problem. Get a pianotech to re-pin the flanges.

#1984937 - 11/10/12 08:00 AM Re: Best treatment for slow falling hammers? [Re: dracaa]  
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,539
David Jenson Offline
2000 Post Club Member
David Jenson  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,539
Maine
I've never seen what Ryan described, but it's a good heads-up. I suspect the pins were of questionable quality, or the felt had some problems. Good felt won't wear out good pins.


David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----
#1985058 - 11/10/12 03:18 PM Re: Best treatment for slow falling hammers? [Re: David Jenson]  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Olek  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
Originally Posted by David Jenson
I've never seen what Ryan described, but it's a good heads-up. I suspect the pins were of questionable quality, or the felt had some problems. Good felt won't wear out good pins.


I disagree, you find grey strips on old centers, this is the surface treatment which is gone, it happens only after decades, indeed.

Alcohol water is very efficient, but one may be patient, and begin with little alcohol, in case the part over react (too much astringency of the cloth)

The pinning can be a little too slow, then get really struck once the hammer is lifted up out of its usual range of movement.

Lubes as CLP are good for parts which are OK, may be only marginally slow. I noticed that once the product evaporates the result is very different from a few hours before.

Renner sells different mixes proposed to treat grand hammers, or other flanges (with a 4.5 to 6 grms range)

I believe it is a mix of Water and isopropyl alcohol, with some lube added.

In effect, just water plus alcohol (any alcohol, the alcohol is just there to allow the water to be more efficient to moisten the fibers) is the same that reaming the cloth, plus eventually some cleaning (?)

While it can be too strong (just make a try and wait 8 hours), it allows me yet to free a complete (Chinese) action, in a few days, with 3 passes, and the result is lasting well since 2 years now.

Pure alcohol does nothing.

The wood is tighter in dry season (keys for instance) the opposite tend to make the centers lazy but this is because of the cloth that swells, not the wood.

As seen on the video , the water alcohol may work, and add CLP later if you wish. CLP is sort of "addictive" to me, one the centers are used to it, it have to be used regularly)

Avoid raising the hammers higher than their normal range...

PS when the center surface treatment is contaminating the cloth, it may slow the center, that is the reason why the cloth have to be cleaned before reaming, but Renner state that in case the centers show those grey strips, the cloth have to be changed (and indeed it is always better)..







Last edited by Kamin; 11/10/12 03:23 PM.

Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
#1985203 - 11/11/12 01:56 AM Re: Best treatment for slow falling hammers? [Re: dracaa]  
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 534
TunerJeff Offline
500 Post Club Member
TunerJeff  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 534
Oregon Coast
I have a church with the same piano. The hammers, and then the jack flanges, tightened to immobility. Using Protek only helped for a brief period (...like a week)and then they tightened up again. I never apply Protek more than twice to any flange. If it doesn't fix after a couple applications, the problem is too severe for anything but re-pin or replace.

Have also encountered this with other Korean pianos, especially late 80's, but more typically it was the damper top-flange on those. Endless attempts at curing dampers that would not seat, or hung-high, and again the re-pin was the only effective 'cure'.

Solution;
Pop the pin, ream the bushing, install new pin. No problems since then. Otherwise a very nice piano!

Yr. svt.,
I remain,


Jeffrey T. Hickey, RPT
Oregon Coast Piano Services
TunerJeff440@aol.com
#1985248 - 11/11/12 07:54 AM Re: Best treatment for slow falling hammers? [Re: dracaa]  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Olek  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
Here is a pinning support to be used with the long centers, . makes a neat and even job, the heat generated iron the cloth, the supports square the parts.

[Linked Image]

or simply :
[Linked Image]

maintaining the squaring is the main concern for using such support.

reaming :
[Linked Image]

Protek CLP is a lube, and eventually a cleaner (the instructions are all but precise) . I would use some only on parts that are yet functional , marginally slow, may be (1 or 2 grams
2 grams)

But I have seen Protek lube parts that had the pinning going out of the part, and others that where even tighter after a week or 2, so using it may be done with caution.

Here is what sells us Renner (supposed to be better adapted to their parts) :
[Linked Image]

for hammers :
[Linked Image]

the felt pens are easy where the access is possible, but not for whippens flanges for instance, where a bottle with a needle is easier to use.

Strong solutions I do myself (up top 70% alcohol)
The only problem is the need to wait, so when visiting a customer it is faster to change the center / the cloth (the cloth I change if the center diameter is more than 1.350.

[Linked Image]

new cloth = firm and nice center. A small 1100 center can be inserted while the glue dries


[Linked Image]

cloth that have been lubed with oil will make the gluing of new cloth difficult, then it may fall while reamed.

Last edited by Kamin; 11/11/12 08:14 AM.

Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!

Moderated by  Piano World 

Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World) our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping on Jansen Artist Piano Benches
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


(ad)
Pianoteq
Grotrian Concert
Royal
for Pianoteq out now
What's Hot!!
Why Do You Play The Piano?
-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
-------------------
Piano Classified Ads
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Unexpected finds.....
by bennevis. 05/28/17 09:58 AM
What are the prices for kawai gx2 and essex 173?
by Piano Audio. 05/28/17 06:03 AM
An invisible music tip - ear.
by ZeroZero. 05/28/17 03:19 AM
I need help...PLEASE
by Flush. 05/27/17 10:22 PM
K. Kawai K48A from 1970 (Made in Japan)
by PianoMomCan. 05/27/17 09:45 PM
(ad)
Sheet Music Plus
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Report Problems With New Forums
Report Problems with New Forums Here!
Forum Statistics
Forums44
Topics179,931
Posts2,630,500
Members87,910
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2017 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0