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Joined: May 2001
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Tell Schiif you're playing the Hammerklavier with the newly discovered autograph showing Beethoven intended pianists to USE TWO HANDS on the opening jump. Then stick your two hands in his face before beginning, smirk, and say something about those who thought Beethoven wanted the passage played with one hand. Then play the entire Sonata without stopping.
Last edited by pianoloverus; 11/08/12 03:54 PM.
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Play Vers la Flamme - that ought to get his attention...
heh, that'd be pretty funny actually...unfortunately, he gets to teach the repertoire he wants to teach, so that'd be out of the question. Unless I'd put one thing in the program and then go on stage playing something else...
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If one is afraid of hearing the true assessment of the person who gave the master class, one should not join the master class. I'd rather know the honest opinion, I do not need to do what I was told. But, at least, we are aware what other think about our playing.
If you do not want other to hear, you should just take a private piano lesson. A private lesson can also be cruel or humiliating for the student, but I think most would at least rather hear those kinds of comments in a private lesson. I don't think you understand that one can make the exact same criticism in different kinds of tones. The good teachers get the same result without being ridiculously mean and humiliating to the student in a public forum. Perhaps you have never seen a master class where the teacher is very cruel and humiliating to the student? I agree with you, a teacher does not need to be nasty to convey the thought. But the student also does not need to go to the nasty teachers. Two months ago, I fired my teacher when he started getting unpleasant. There are many teachers who are very good and pleasant. Again, my point is that we do not need to put ourselves in that situation, we have a choice. That's a completely different point. And I don't think it in any way justifies nastiness on the part of the mater class teacher. It really shouldn't have to be a choice between not going a to master class or having to be humiliated. You cannot change the person who gave the master class. He/she can behave whatever way he/she likes. We are the student, we have a choice to give them a chance to be nasty or not to us.
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That's a completely different point. And I don't think it in any way justifies nastiness on the part of the mater class teacher.
It really shouldn't have to be a choice between not going a to master class or having to be humiliated. You cannot change the person who gave the master class. He/she can behave whatever way he/she likes. We are the student, we have a choice to give them a chance to be nasty or not to us. Glad to see that you agree that the teacher is at fault here, which was not what you originally said. The student cannot change the teacher, but it's unfortunate that those who invite these few well known nasty teachers don't start refusing to invite them anymore. Those people could change things if they wanted to.
Last edited by pianoloverus; 11/08/12 07:51 PM.
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There are a handful of mater class teachers who are unfotunately quite well known for their nasty master classes which I have dubbed NASTER classes. Not to get too off topic, but here's a good example: Youtube.com Most masterclasses I've attended have never been this way, I have a feeling it's a rare occurrence.
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Why not just play the leap with one hand for the masterclass to avoid having this argument? While it's definitely a risk, especially since you're not used to it, I think that someone of your abilities can do it without distorting the rhythm too much (turning the eighth into a quarter).
I'm sure you play more difficult leaps in other pieces that you play (Liszt, for example). I would suggest practising it both ways - but playing it your preferred way in your performance. If he pulls you up on it, you can mount your argument respectfully and if you fail to convince him, you'll be able to at least play it the other way without making a mess of it. I would never avoid my own interpretation just to avoid trouble with somebody. I'm happy to alter my approach if the master requests it, but ultimately I am there to have a master critique my style, not my imagination of what he might like. I think that's a dishonest way to approach such a situation. With anything you do that is controversial or unconventional, be prepared with sound arguments for why you are doing it - both musical and technical, and even historical if possible. If you show the right combination of strength and yielding, you will gain the respect of the master. Of course you should never enter an intense argument with somebody like this - that would not be smart politics in the narrow world of classical music, but you can push it reasonably far as long as you stay on point. Only argue itensely if he questions your parentage!
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Forgive me for asking the obvious, but what is the allure of playing for a jerk? Even if the jerk is Andras Schiff? For example, I have read his published remarks on historically minded performance of Bach, for example, and he comes off as both uneducated and self-righteous. Like pianists of yesteryear.
Why put a guy like that in a teaching situation? What could one possibly gain from a public hour with him, aside from abuse?
Last edited by Peter K. Mose; 11/09/12 03:34 AM.
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I agree with Peter.
On a side note, my teacher told me guitarist Andres Segovia once spat on the ground in disgust over a simple wrong note or minor mistake in a piece a student played for him in a Masterclass setting
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he comes off as both uneducated and self-righteous.
Really!!!
Why put a guy like that in a teaching situation?
I think that these artists are obliged to do masterclasses. I think that the situation is ridiculous: pretty much insulting to the artist, flattering for mediocre students and mediocre music fans. I can understand that an artist detests being in such a situation. And that he takes it out on the "student", well why not! And then you have some fellow or gal who says "I am going to show him something about the Hammerklavier!"
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Forgive me for asking the obvious, but what is the allure of playing for a jerk? Even if the jerk is Andras Schiff? For example, I have read his published remarks on historically minded performance of Bach, for example, and he comes off as both uneducated and self-righteous. Like pianists of yesteryear. I don't know what remarks you're referring to, but my impression is that Schiff is generally considered one of the leading performers of Bach's music on the planet. I also think the critical reviews of his performances and recordings have been extremely excellent. He fills major halls playing all Bach programs.
Last edited by pianoloverus; 11/09/12 07:20 AM.
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I would suggest practising it both ways - but playing it your preferred way in your performance. If he pulls you up on it, you can mount your argument respectfully and if you fail to convince him, you'll be able to at least play it the other way without making a mess of it. I would never avoid my own interpretation just to avoid trouble with somebody. I'm happy to alter my approach if the master requests it, but ultimately I am there to have a master critique my style, not my imagination of what he might like. I think that's a dishonest way to approach such a situation.
With anything you do that is controversial or unconventional, be prepared with sound arguments for why you are doing it - both musical and technical, and even historical if possible. If you show the right combination of strength and yielding, you will gain the respect of the master. Of course you should never enter an intense argument with somebody like this - that would not be smart politics in the narrow world of classical music, but you can push it reasonably far as long as you stay on point. Only argue intensely if he questions your parentage!
I have never been to a master class where the student argued with the teacher. Maybe a one sentence question about something the teacher said. I have gone to at least 150 master classes.
Last edited by pianoloverus; 11/09/12 07:26 AM.
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I would suggest practising it both ways - but playing it your preferred way in your performance. If he pulls you up on it, you can mount your argument respectfully and if you fail to convince him, you'll be able to at least play it the other way without making a mess of it. I would never avoid my own interpretation just to avoid trouble with somebody. I'm happy to alter my approach if the master requests it, but ultimately I am there to have a master critique my style, not my imagination of what he might like. I think that's a dishonest way to approach such a situation.
With anything you do that is controversial or unconventional, be prepared with sound arguments for why you are doing it - both musical and technical, and even historical if possible. If you show the right combination of strength and yielding, you will gain the respect of the master. Of course you should never enter an intense argument with somebody like this - that would not be smart politics in the narrow world of classical music, but you can push it reasonably far as long as you stay on point. Only argue intensely if he questions your parentage!
I have never been to a master class where the student argued with the teacher. Maybe a one sentence question about something the teacher said. I have gone to at least 150 master classes. There's a difference between "arguing" and having reasoned arguments for why you do something. Present arguments is a perfectly reasonable and peaceful thing to do. It just means you are explaining your reasoning for your choices. I have seen tense moments in masterclasses. They are not always obsequious yes sir/no sir affairs. I haven't ever seen a full blown argument, but I have seen disagreements and visibly upset parties on both sides. Not hard to see why when egos and passions run high. If somebody started to really insult me, I would push back, regardless of who they were. Once you have been humiliated there's not much left to lose. I consider it a matter of basic human respect not to belittle somebody. Fortunately I've never been treated that way in such a class, but I have seen people rather roundly rebuked and belittled. It almost always reflects badly on the teacher rather than the student.
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I think that these artists are obliged to do masterclasses. I think that the situation is ridiculous: pretty much insulting to the artist, flattering for mediocre students and mediocre music fans. I can understand that an artist detests being in such a situation. And that he takes it out on the "student", well why not!
I don't think famous pianists are ever forced to give master classes. They may do so as a favor to whoever's in charge, but if they accept this job they should do it with the best intentions and for the benefit of the student and the audience. I assume they get paid for these classes. The top pianists like Schiff don't teach "mediocre" students in their master classes. The students are always conservatory pianists and for someone like Schiff, I'd guess the best conservatory students. "Mediocre music fans"?
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That Demus clip was disgusting. Made worse by the fact that he was making rather shallow musical points.
There's a great clip on youtube of Rubinstein giving a masterclass on the 1st Ballade. Very old and near-blind, he imparts wonderful things.
Using music to lash out is really unforgivable in my opinion.
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(btw, to the OP, I'd play the Bartok Etudes).
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I've never understood why students would go to a masterclass with someone who has a known reputation for being nasty. No matter how well-known, there are pianists who enjoy massaging their egos by destroying hapless students to an adoring audience (who may have wanted to see blood spilled....). Personally, if I was to go to one such, I'd go armed with lots of sarcastic one-liners to put these egoistical and egotistical pianists back into their place....  This is different from those pianists who are naturally volatile but not mean or obnoxious - I once watched a masterclass on Chopin given by Cristina Ortiz, who, after being unable (after several attempts) to get a student to play with any sort of expression, almost pushed him off his seat to demonstrate what she wanted at the piano - despite never having played the piece (an Etude) herself - which she admitted at the beginning -, and obviously sightreading. It turned out to be a masterclass in sightreading, complete with all expression, though she obviously left out a few notes here and there .
If music be the food of love, play on!
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The top pianists like Schiff don't teach "mediocre" students in their master classes. Oh yes they do. For example: The students are always conservatory pianists I assume they get paid for these classes. "Money makes the world go round ..."
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Personally, if I was to go to one such, I'd go armed with lots of sarcastic one-liners to put these egoistical and egotistical pianists back into their place.... So, what is their place? Egoistical and egotistical!
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(btw, to the OP, I'd play the Bartok Etudes).  Or Bach. A major part of Schiff's baggage is Kurtag (still alive, by the way) who was close to Bartok. There is a Bach lineage there that is simply insuperable. What an opportunity for you, Fnork. This guy has a lot to say to you, don't go try to show him what you think, go to hear what he thinks. It is a master class: go to the master! Or don't go.
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Personally, if I was to go to one such, I'd go armed with lots of sarcastic one-liners to put these egoistical and egotistical pianists back into their place.... So, what is their place? Egoistical and egotistical! Back where they belong: a B-list concert pianist who needs to earn extra money by giving masterclasses because they can't get enough concerts and recordings .
If music be the food of love, play on!
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