Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards Kawai MP6 vs MP10 vs Roland FP4F vs Roland FP7F

Hello everyone,

Yes JFP, maybe there was a bad setup somehow with the touch curve, but even mechanically speaking, playing delicate passage was somehow difficult, and from what I remember the "let off" feeling so second step of pressing the key was for something in this. first step to the let off was ok and didn't require much power, but then the second part required more power. Which is probably why I ended up with notes not played at all because they were probably somehow not pressed enough to play the note correctly. So MY guess about that wrong feeling on this ES7 when playing gently comes from this I think and why I really didn't like it.


OK back to the subject. I tried yesterday only 3 DP I have in mind to buy : MP6, MP10, and FP7F

MP10 :

Touch is really nice and slightly softer than the MP6 somehow. It looks like the touch of a grand piano, and the let off is really nice. I could play different piano pieces well, even in the soft parts :-) everything was easy, repetitions were also good and not a problem. Soft bottoming is very good even at small volumes in your headphone.

The sound was good, I oinly tried the piano sounds and didn't tweak anything really, I could probably have got a better sound by tweaking but well... Piano sounds are good, and sound really rich, maybe even too much i'd say. on my headphone on high volume I could hear distortion, so I had to turn the volume down (I don't know if that was because of the headphone quality or not, probably...I reckon I should have brought MY AKG headphone, anyway...) The strong point are the low notes of the piano, the sound is powerful, very clear, and the decay is good. however the bad point that really ticked me is the high notes that sound really fake, the sound seems kind of very digital, and not much realistic. Well playing a melody with my right hand while playing arpeggios on my left one made me realize that. I'm not talking about the very very high ones, but to me if you go after the second half of the keyboard the notes sound seem more "fake" and not rich enough like the bass notes are.

setting up the piano is not so intuitive to be honest, and I had to ask a seller in order to just change the sounds from Grand Piano, to Mellow for example. I guess it requires a bit of time to be able to work with it correctly.

The DP is quite massive to be honest, and would not be SO portable especially if one wants to often move it. So that's a point to think about, especially if you have to also move the amplification system, because again this model along with the mp6 has no speakers. Bad point being you have NO vibration coming from the speakers to your hands which really lacks to me. Maybe in the future they could create pianos that would "vibrate" somehow, like the acoustic piano do when you play them.

Overall i think it's a very good piano, with a very nice touch, that for me is it's strong point. The sound is a little bit better than the MP6 that I'm gonna discuss right after, it has a more realistic tone, but it's not a big gap to me.



MP6 :

The touch is the closest to my upright acoustic piano sound. Quite firm, really nice touch. I could play any classical piece with ease even in the delicate passages. The mechanic is different from the MP10 the action is firmer, different, but still really good to me !!

Sound is good, like the MP10 but only slightly less realistic I'd say. Honestly in a blind test I don't think that a lot of people would see the difference. You can tweak the sound easily, but i didn't do it, I didn't want to alter the sound by tweaking too much.

Settings are way easier to adjust on this one than on the MP10, you have access to everything right away which is a good point.

The MP6 is very "portable" it's not massive at all which is a strong point in my case, because I think that I'll need to move

Overall is seems to be the best choice for me, more portable, sounds quality very close to the MP10 (for what i could try, but in a shop it's hard to have an accurate sound test.



FP7F :

Touch was the bad point to me. It's not firm enough under the fingers. It seems too light to me. The let off feeling is good however, and it's still enjoyable to play with this type of mechanics. The VERY BAD point to me that makes i cannot buy it, is the very hard bottoming. It makes way too much noise and kills the pleasure of the nice touch this DP has. It's night and day when you compare to the MP6 or MP10 in term of bottoming sound. Action being my first priority I cannot consider this piano in my top list anymore.

Sound is good although really different, it seems much simpler than the ones of the Kawai, and that is what makes it "natural". Hard to describe it with words, and English is not my mother-tong. Kawai have a more bright sound compared to the Roland one. It seems it has less "harmonics" in the sound in general, that's how I would describe it compared to the kawai sound that seem a bit "too much". Simplicity is sometimes good and I liked the piano sounds well !

Tweaking seems easy to access, but kinda harder to quickly tweak (i didn't touch it much anyway)

the FP7F seems quite light and very compact which would have been a good point.

Overall quality and sound are really good, touch is also nice, but I can't go with a keyboard that makes so much noise .



In the end, I THINK I'll go for the MP6 for different reasons :

1) It's lighter and more portable

2) Action is really good and what I was looking for, really close to my Upright Weinbach acoustic piano.

3) Sounds are really good, close to the MP10 and quickly editable

4) 30% Cheaper than the MP10

5) It has more feature than the MP10 although i don't think that I'll really use them.



What do you guys think ? I was not in the best place for a perfect test of the sound and action. All the DP were at the opposite side of the room, and not close to each other and the ambiant noise didn't help at all, but well. Better than nothing.

Thanks everyone again to share your experience and thoughts with me !

I think the Mp6 is a great allround board that you can hardly go wrong with. Of course I'm a bit biased, because I owned one - after a long search for a good portable. But that was more than a year ago and now there's more choice.

If your really want to be sure about your decision, I would go back to the shop that seems to carry all boards (nice!) and compare the MP6 and ES7 next to each other once more : after doing a factory reset ! Than you're sure no settings have been messed up than influence your judgement. I had this once, where all effects we're turned to 10. Sounded like crap, but after a factory reset so much better ! A messed up touch curve can also do a lot of harm. Also try the mellow AP on the ES7 and see if that is more to your liking. Try both headphones and speakers.

IMHO the AP grand on the ES is better than the preset on the MP6 , due to better processing and resonance effects. Also repetition is noticeably better - keybed is easier to play in general. On the other hands, I am too still coming to terms with the different touch of the RH II , with respect to key travel and control over soft passages. I mean dynamic response of the keys when playing soft - to me it seems more jumpy and harder to control in those regions than the RH on the MP6. When you play the keys a bit harder (mf and up) , the dynamic response of the keys are more gradual and just fine. It's hard to explain in words unfortunately. Still the ES has a lot to offer for playing acoustical / classical piano with respect to the MP6. There's always a trade-off, but I should try it once more...worth the effort !

Good luck, J

So this is interesting... It seems that the benefits of a third sensor in the RHII may have been negated somewhat by less than ideal placement.?

Although different people have a similar experience, we shouldn't jump to conclusions to quickly. I didn't make enough user touch curve efforts to be 100% sure the different feeling can't be compensate by a touch response curve that fits better. Or there may even be a firmware update in the future that includes some small adjustments in the way the keyed responds. All I can say is that it's different than the RH and that the difference is most noticeable (to me ) when trying to play soft and delicate . On the other hand there is the big advantage of a lighter, faster and easier to play keybed. As said, there always seem to be a trade off, just pick the features you like to most. I guess GF has it all, but is out of my budget range and not really 'portable'

Yes I think it's the idea I have ! I agree it came out a while ago but still seems to be the best choice to me at the moment




Arrrrg, this shop is quite far from my work and place, but yes they do have MANY digital and acoustic pianos which is really nice indeed. I didn't want to go back there, but I'll have last try on all those pianos with my Headphone and will ask the seller to perform a reset factory, just to ensure my first impression about the ES7 was right. But apart from the sound aspect when playing gently, it's the mechanical aspect I didn't quite like, so I think it will not have anything to deal with the factory reset. But anyway, it's worth trying again you're probably right.



Yes everyone told me the ES7 would have better improvement of both sounds, AND keybed action and all. I, at the moment can not agree with this from my point of view and tests.

Hello everyone !


I went to test the DP again. I asked the seller to factory reset the DP so I could test the digital piano on a clean base.


I tried again the ES7 with factory reset, but still couldn't play it correctly. I really don't like its action. The repetitions are indeed better and easier on this keyboard, the Mechanic itself it not something that suits me. From what I can say, let's say you can divide the action of the keys in 2 parts. First part doesn't require much pression or strengh to be pressed down, however the second part require more pressure. That is precisely what I find wrong on this action. This configurations disturbs me when playing gently because, when I play gently my goal is to press down the key as soflty as possible to play in pp (piano-piano). The result is that It's impossible to control this keyboard properly. Some notes will be pressed but not to the end and will by result produce NO sound.

I don't know if I've been so clear about the way I felt, but this mechanic issue prevents me from considering this Kawai ES7. I much prefer the MP6 or the MP10 touch wich for me don't have this problem.

Let's get back to the MP10 and MP6

I played again, and again the same piano pieces, both touch are different, I think the MP10 has a slightly better one, it's surface it more enjoyable to touch, and the action seems more articulate. But to me it's no big deal the MP6 one is really quiet and also very good.

About the sound, I still find the MP10 a little bit better, especially in the high notes. But that is the weak point of both of the MP10 and MP6. it's like the low notes are very rich and detailed, but the high notes seem unnatural and very electronic. You realize this when you play melodies with your right hand while playing arpeggios with the left one.

Anyway I think that I'll go with the MP6. I'll record my songs using MIDI file, and will probably use a very good sample to get a better sound in the end. I've seen Kontact from Native instruments that seems to be a good alternative.


Any other alternative or advice ?

thanks

[Attention: Kawai James]

Sounds to me like it might be the "Let-off" (or, escapement) feature (that you are describing as the Mechanic) that is causing this issue?

I have never heard of the let-off giving too much resistance to the fingers when attempting to play very softly, although maybe this could be a potential problem with the new ES7?

I do not encounter too much resistance in the escapement feature with either the Kawai CA95, or, Roland V-Piano.

Perhaps someone else could test an ES7 to see if this is the case?

Well it's hard to describe, but playing gently was my problem on this ES7. It's hard to describe precisely to be honest but something felt wrong, and I didn't encounter that issue with the MP10 of the MP6 although they both have a different action. But again in pure repetition, the ES7 is superior, and it's easier to do quick repetitions. But that didn't bother me playing technical classic pieces so well...

I've found the sound of the ES7 however (only the piano ones) a bit better than the MP6, and probably closer to those of the MP10. But the action is more important to me than the sound itself. Also it's true that the speakers makes the keyboard vibrate and add realism when playing.

Grosskate, as pv88 notes, this 'secondary resistance' is the let-off simulation.

The feeling should be the same as the MP6 (both the RH and RHII actions are mechanically identical, but for the different sensor types), however there may be some minor variance from one model to the next.

The superior sound quality of the ES7 (versus the MP6) is probably attributable to the new tone generator and higher resolution reverbs/effects etc.

Kind regards,
James
x

@Grosskate,

I have played quite a few digital pianos and this is the first time I have ever heard anyone mention the "let-off" (or, escapement simulation feature) offering too much resistance to the fingers in "pp" playing.

I have a Kawai CA95 and its let-off is apparently very subtle so that you hardly notice it, most of the time. I have not seen where it does not allow one to play as softly as you would like, with some notes not sounding.

If it does continue to present an issue for you, then I would just go with your next best choice...

No unfortunately only 1 model was displayed in the shop, and i couldn't try it anywhere else.

So again, mainly it was the control over the notes played in pp that was wrong for me. Some notes were pressed but not played at all. I struggled to find the appropriate pressure and force to add when pressing a key in order to play the notes as gently as possible. and it felt like the first part of the pressure to the let off point was ok, but then harder (too hard??) to press down and play the note. So mechanically when playing a classical piece, i ended up with some notes not played at all. Maybe it's just a matter of time before adapting to it. But i felt better on the MP6 or the MP10 playing the same different classical pieces.

Sorry I cannot describe it differently maybe it depends on the person that is playing it as a matter of "feeling".

But yes I'll probably go with the MP6 in the end, the mp10 being too massive and too expensive for me.

@Grosskate,

Sure wish I could try out the same ES7 you had played on, as that is certainly a first for me in hearing your predicament with the let-off. I can see why some of your notes didn't "sound" when playing as softly/slowly as possible since no Kawai currently has the ability to sound a note from the let-off point.

Perhaps there are others who will test the ES7 and can make their observations on the let-off resistance. Not many digitals have this ability to "sound" a note from the let-off point, only.

You would think that Kawai would incorporate the "playing off/from the jack" feature into their digitals, as more customers are becoming aware of the apparent shortcoming.

Well I don't know if it's only from the let off point , but I just couldn't control whether the note would pressed completely AND sound, OR NOT when playing gently.

i don't know what else I could say.

It also feels like overall the travel of the key is shorter than on the other DP. I measured, and it seems to be indeed the same distance that the key travel down, but when playing I also have this feeling.

Maybe i don't explain myself clearly enough. Sorry English is not my mother tongue :-p



I don't think that I can easily find another shop where to try this ES7 model.

@Grosskate,

You have explained your situation with the ES7 quite well, and, here is a summary of the current issues:

1) No current Kawai digital is capable of "playing off/from the jack" as you should be able to do, just like an acoustic grand piano.

2) It is possible to play softly enough without a note sounding, which may be related to the let-off being too firm, or, stiff.

Perhaps Kawai can update all of their pianos with the correct simulation?

My MP6 had let-off. No problems there. My ES7 has let-off, but since it should be the same action as the MP6, save for the 3rd sensor, I doubt if the let-off has anything to do with the difference in feeling. The RH and RH II do indeed respond in a different way - and they should , why else bother to bring out a new version. But I second the opinion that the ES requires some more work to get used to than the MP , that I felt comfortable with from day 1. I think in the end I wouldn't go back to the repetition characteristics of the RH , but there were some things I did like about the original RH that I am still trying to match with the RH II. Perhaps some delicate tweaking in touch/ dynamic response, especially for soft playing in a firmware update or user setting will do the trick. Maybe in the end , after some tweaking , there's more to like about the RH II after all, but its still a work in progress. Sorry, no simple one way advice about RH vs RH II. Though 99% the same on paper, they are too different in reality and therefore become a matter of taste and personal preference. Neither is bad. P.s. also keep in mind I can only judge my own units and experience may vary from one unit to another as James indicated.

Edit: just played it for a while again and think the responsiveness of the RH II makes up for the better (more smooth) dynamic control of the RH in the soft range. Rather have it both , but if I must choose , I would go for the RH II. Just my thoughts...

To all:

I now have an answer from Kawai regarding the let-off simulation, here:

Kawai's "Let-off" question - answer received

Hello

Thanks that is good to know and it's explained really well ! I think in the end that I'm going to order an MP6 soon

I have not tried any of the Kawai, (will do this week) but I did play the FP4F a lot. Both of them are light years away from my current DP (Korg 170s) So I'm sure any of them will be a huge improvement for me.

The FP4F seems to go almost ignored on the forums and gets bad reviews due to the sluggish and "slow key response" feeling and it is always suggested to go directly to the FP7F which seem to be way better. But that one is in a higher price range.

The FP4F goes almost unnamed on this thread too, yet it's "Kawai MP6 vs MP10 vs Roland FP4F vs Roland FP7F" What's your opinion on the FP4F? How would you compare its action against the MP6 (again, I feel the MP10 is in higher price range).

I believe this thread should be more like "Kawai MP6 vs Roland FP4F" and "Kawai MP10 vs Roland FP7F" I would not compare the 4 all together.

Cheers.

MP6 = $1500
FP4F= $1700
FP7F = $2000
MP10 = $2500

The relatively small difference in price between the FP4F and the FP7F for a much better action is why few people are very interested in the FP4F unless they really need its better portability. (And it's still not super light.)

I just tried out the Kawai ES7 just today and was surprised that the action