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Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: jscomposer] #1984115
11/08/12 12:01 PM
11/08/12 12:01 PM
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gvfarns Offline
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@ap55, FYI I wasn't necessarily disagreeing with anything you say, it's just that there were enough typos and grammar errors that I literally could not figure out what you were trying to communicate. I appreciate your clarification.

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Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: jscomposer] #1984155
11/08/12 01:47 PM
11/08/12 01:47 PM
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@gvfarns, yes sorry for the grammar errors, I am not a native english speaker.
@xorbe: May be I am mesmerized by new technology going in my opinion the right way, not by a special brand. I am not a marketer.

Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: jscomposer] #1984165
11/08/12 02:07 PM
11/08/12 02:07 PM
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Is there a release date for Physis or this vapourware? Unreleased products can always appear amazing "on paper".

Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: jscomposer] #1984454
11/09/12 03:11 AM
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http://audioelectric.de/shop/product_info.php?info=p13780_viscount-physis-piano-h2.html.

My verbal information is from the distributor here in Germany and from beginning of October. The availability was said to be from mid of Nov and it is already offered for order, see above link.

Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: jscomposer] #1984886
11/10/12 05:03 AM
11/10/12 05:03 AM
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Yesterday jumped in the shop (next door on the way to home) and I tried it out with a number instruments and now I concluded for myself, that this feature has no practical importance for me at all.

If you press some key(s) --> sustain pedal --> pedal up while holding some key(s) down, damper up remains effective, and that is the only thing which I use while playing. The instruments I tested did it well. (As my older Kawai CA51 get it right as well). This behaviour could come next to a real sostenuto-mimic.

Key up, than pressing it very slowly (silently) again while pedal down - this seems now an awkward and useless playing technic to me - not a real sostenuto simulation at all. (As a matter of fact neither one of them because you have to hold the key down, not a pedal!) The only use I can imagine is to show the effect of some vague finger technic, but I am not that sure if that has a practical importance at all.

The whole topic now seems to be about a fault in term of a perfectionist attitude only.

(The next logical step for an ultimate modeling of a concert grand you should have heavy bricks built in the DP cabinet to simulate the same weight as the real thing)

Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: ap55] #1984960
11/10/12 10:02 AM
11/10/12 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by ap55
http://audioelectric.de/shop/product_info.php?info=p13780_viscount-physis-piano-h2.html.

My verbal information is from the distributor here in Germany and from beginning of October. The availability was said to be from mid of Nov and it is already offered for order, see above link.


Interesting. I expect there will be a Winter NAMM announcement.

Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: jscomposer] #1985077
11/10/12 04:28 PM
11/10/12 04:28 PM
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That price for the Physis is less than I thought it would be, and I love the demo recordings!
P.S And it sounds MORE metallic than Pianoteq, which is a GOOD thing, IMHO. The metallic quality in the Physis is a GOOD kind of metallic.

Greg.

Last edited by sullivang; 11/10/12 04:31 PM.
Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: jscomposer] #1985087
11/10/12 04:54 PM
11/10/12 04:54 PM
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Two versions even! H1 &H2!


Yamaha CP33 | Roland XP-30
Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: sullivang] #1985097
11/10/12 05:35 PM
11/10/12 05:35 PM
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I would like better a SW-only model instead of a complete dedicated proprietary HW/Sw solution.

I would regard a SW Piano as good halfway between Open Source and a proprietary package as Physis or VPiano.

Reasons: With modeled instruments You have to buy in a fast developing new technology. If a DP is sold only HW-bundled , you have to pay for the whole package roughly 5 to 10 times as much as for a SW. The whole package will be amortised, you cannot upgrade it after 3 years (neither people who take it second hand).

Necessary computing power is nowadays at hand with normal PCs (4-6 core CPUs with 8-12 "virtual" cores), "unlimited" storage (speed and capacity) and excellent semi-pro soundcards with no latency. You can easily update your HW which You do regularly anyway.

You are then flexible, can choose the right keyboard for Your taste, level of sound quality of sound cards, amplifiers, right sound boxes. And You can play with other instruments (not only pianos) as well.

From this standpoint I find it desirable to avoid paying too much for proprietary dedicated modelled HW-SW DPs if there are other altenatives. (By the way, the same applies for sampled DPs as well).

3000 EUR/$ for a DP is only justified for me, if it has an outstanding keyboard (value 1000 EUR/$) a good sound system (1000-1500 EUR/$ value) which can be used with external sound sources as well.

The only modelled SW pianos I know are
  • Pianoteq (plastic sound - NOT QUITE RIGHT, not so weightful as some SW-Pianos, but as a whole very instrument-like)
  • Sound Magic Imperial Grand3d (evaluated it newly - not in a league with Pianoteq)
  • Truepianos (simplest of all of them)
Even VPianos have a somewhat plasticly quality to my taste. Sampled pianos are just a more mature technology today.

Last edited by Temperament; 11/14/12 06:45 PM. Reason: At last I bought Pianoteq4: what a big surprise superb playability!
Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: jscomposer] #1985114
11/10/12 06:55 PM
11/10/12 06:55 PM
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FYI, you should check out the DPBSD thread on TruePianos. It's a sampled, looped, stretched piano, not a modelled one. The technology is similar to what's found on onboard piano tone engines. Apparently the idea that it's modelled is a myth.

Last edited by gvfarns; 11/10/12 07:05 PM.
Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: gvfarns] #1985242
11/11/12 06:33 AM
11/11/12 06:33 AM
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Yes, the DPBSD Truepianos v1.5.0 test concluded with a poor verdict. Yesterday I tried the current v1.9.5 demo and it was nothing to me to bother with. (In old times for 5 Ys. it was the very first piano sound I played with a MIDI keyboard and this first encounter was a true revelation. Interestingly, the timbre I found even now piano-like over the whole range, but after playing it some seconds you get all the problems which Dewster analysis is showing: stretching is obvious, a very audible phenomenon even during real playing.) Sympathetic resonance was non-existent for me, no much have changed since DPBSD test. (You cannot wait too much from a 100MB sampled instrument, but it passed our topic's test at least!)

I tried the current demo of Sound Magic Imperial Grand3D too. It has many of a piano characteristic implemented, but with many very unnatural rudimentary implementation details (reverbs, pedal behaviour).

Pianoteq stands there with no serious concurrency. Playability is superb, but it's piano sound I would describe as correct, but far from being a beautiful piano sound - not nearly as good as with some good quality sampled pianos, Galaxy e.g. (Even VPiano sound was not convincing.)

There must be a difficult to measure but subjectively very important distinguishing sound quality mark.

I can now better understand the strategy of modeler SWs, why they are packaging their SW-Product into whole phyiscal instruments: with SW alone it is no much room left to earn money. Even Pianoteq can charge only 100-400$ for their SW, setting some upper price limit.

What I could see as desirable, would be updateable modules within the cabinet of DPs. You could change computer parts (CPU, Memory, Motherboard, Sound Card all of them as a unit) AND SW separately, because the other parts (action, amplifier, boxes) are not amortising that fast. You have already standard interfaces to build on (MIDI; audio, sound cards).

I am wondering, how many LINUX-Based solutions are working within the DPs currently on the market.

Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: Temperament] #1985330
11/11/12 12:36 PM
11/11/12 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Temperament
I am wondering, how many LINUX-Based solutions are working within the DPs currently on the market.


The only software DP I know of that is working with linux is PianoTeq. And it works with no problems.

I actually emailed TruePianos and asked them to get me a linux version back when I was starting out. They have one internally that works fine, but they have never sold it. They were willing to sell it to me, though, so if anyone wants it I bet you could contact them directly and work something out. I didn't end up getting it.

To play Ivory or Galaxy on linux you would need kontakt or one of the other player programs for linux and as far as I know there are no suitable options. If there are, I'd love to know about it.

I'm not sure whether Kontakt, for example would work within wine.

Last edited by gvfarns; 11/11/12 12:36 PM.
Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: jscomposer] #1985336
11/11/12 12:48 PM
11/11/12 12:48 PM
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I think the issue with pianos on Linux is that they often require iLok for copy protection, and that is not supported on Linux (although Muse has a special arrangement which supports iLok on the Linux-based Receptor).

Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: jscomposer] #1985338
11/11/12 12:51 PM
11/11/12 12:51 PM
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Another reason to hate and avoid the iLok.

I did a bit of google just now to check it out and it seems that some people have decent success running Kontakt under wine. There are also tools to play or convert .nki files natively in linux but I doubt that all the little scripts that give you stuff like sympathetic resonance and repedalling work. Maybe I shouldn't be a doubting Thomas, though.

My main computers are all linux-based so maybe I'll try a couple of these with Vintage D to test the concept. I would not at all mind ditching windows on my piano computer.

Last edited by gvfarns; 11/11/12 12:53 PM.
Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: gvfarns] #1985349
11/11/12 01:38 PM
11/11/12 01:38 PM
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I didn't mean LINUX-compatibility of SW pianos but the internal architecture of proprietary Digital Pianos - I suspect that these are internally based on a Linux computer in their cabinet!

All kind of much simpler HW (like my tiny Lynksys router) hapen to be Linux computer running some dedicated tasks with the application logic. Some or the better part or just all of the DP manufacturers could have it in this manner...s.Dewster's remarks to Linux Attila

Last edited by Temperament; 11/15/12 03:07 PM. Reason: Link
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