Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Key Dip Block, how do I get/use the right one?

I am having trouble with key dip. Some say measure it at the pin others at the front of the key. And dip block are all over the place where it is measured.

I just got a 3/8 and 13/32 from schaff. These particular ones measure at the front of the key. That gives me what seems really shallow dip. When used, they give me way less depth at the pin than what is stated on the blocks.

I have another block that is 10.5mm at the front of the key, but it gives me much too much at the pin.
It is really frustrating.

When I order a block, I do not know where it is set to measure. and then, is it measuring where the manufacture specifies to check dip?

I just want to set a dip that works well and then I can go from there to get good aftertouch. I like consistent AT (about 1.5mm), and like the feel of constant after touch versus constant dip. of course ideal is to have both consistent.

Opinions?
Is dip measured at the pin or at the front of the key?

Is there a supply house of dip blocks for which you have good luck?

Should I try to construct my own blocks and have a bunch of them? What is the angle at which they need to be made?

Or do I use a piece of brass rod of specific diameter that I can slip beneath the key and to the pin?

Thanks,
Bob Tate.

Bob,
you say you "want to set a dip that works well". It doesn't really matter where you measure - at the pin or at the front of the key. I would set the dip of a few keys so it "works well" and either make your own key dip block that fits that dip, or modify one from a supply house. Hey, you can even get the official Steinway dip block (I believe they are $20 but I haven't looked lately). I carry two dip blocks of different thicknesses.

I modified my key dip block so I can adjust the angle of the "wedge" so that it will match the angle of the depressed key. That way the whole top surface of my dip block is flush and even with the neighboring key when I use it.

The problem with key dip is that there is no universal method of measuring it. It depends on where you measure it on the key, and that is not always specified. People get to arguing over increments that are less than the amount that it can vary depending on where it is measured.

You can make key dip blocks from old keys from a junker piano, or just cut blocks of wood. Everyone in this business needs a little woodworking knowledge, and this is a good starter project.

The whole idea of a dip block doesn't make sense to me -- since you might need so many different ones. Just get the Schaff tool that is universally adjustable for a range of dip measurements. It will set dip for both white and black keys and also set key level for the blacks. I think it is still listed as a Jaras tool.

As BDB mentions there's no universal standard for where to measure. The important thing is that its done the same for all the keys. I have a couple lines drawn across the top of mine which is home made. Its just two triangle shaped blocks that come together as a square with a small screw in a slot to adjust it. I put the front of the block lined up with the front of the key and then check the height there or at one of the lines farther back. You will find that the reading varies depending on how hard you press down and having consistant pressure probably makes more of a difference than where you are looking at on the block.

I use the Wessell, Nickel, and Gross version of this tool: http://mazzagliatools.com/DipInfoPage.html

However, if I had known this version existed before I bought mine, I would have bought this one instead. My standard dip is 10mm.

Also, 1.5mm for aftertouch? Really? That's about .060".... excessively large IMO.

The other major variable on setting key block is the amount of pressure applied. You can radically effect results by using either lighter or firm pressure, depending on how squishy the front rail punching is. Some technicians use a weight in order to get more consistency.

Another popular modification is to screw a cross piece on the top of the key dip block that will click on the neighboring keys when depressed. Balance punchings can be added or subtracted to calibrate the dip block for more or less dip.

Wessel Nickle & Gross has one that is weighted and adjustable:

If the keyboard is well leveled, a Jaras plunger type tool works pretty well to, and it too can be calibrated for deeper or shallower dip.

Because proper aftertouch is a function of so many different and varying things, you cannot have even aftertouch without something else being uneven. In an upright, jack/butt alignment is all over the place with no adjustment possible. Hammer distance is also not individually adjustable. Also, there is uneven wear on all the felt parts. So striving for consistent key dip has to result in uneveness in other areas. My feeling is that at a high level of precision, aftertouch is more noticeable than key dip. For that reason, I try to get a consensus on a few sample notes, of what key dip works for this piano, resulting in good repetition, volume, sensitivity, and most importantly - aftertouch, (given a set and desired hammer distance and letoff) then try to match all the other keydips. Then, if some keys do not feel right (after touch) I might alter key dip for that one note. Once you can feel aftertouch, you will accept uneven key dip (which shouldn't be noticeabe at the small variations I am suggesting) over uneven aftertouch. So, when choosing, determining, and setting key dip, just make sure you do it the same way on each key, in order to reproduce the key dip that worked in your samples (but probably won't work, i.e. give consistent after touch) for all the keys.

You can adjust hammer distance individually on a vertical action if the hammer rail felt is not glued at the top. You can shim under the felt.

The angle of the key will be different for different key lengths. Supply's adjustable key dip block is a great idea. (Not sure how it's done).

When regulating key travel, I base my adjustments to having the key level at mid stroke. I usually measure from the front of the key, not from the lip of the key top. Consistency is easily maintained as the key is depressed, the key dip block can be matched to the front of the adjacent keys by feel or sight.

The after touch is just a mechanical safety measure to ensure proper functioning of the action. Its proper setting prevents jack jamming on the rep window cusion or double striking on the strings. On uprights it facilitates positive checking as Reblitz mentions.

Although pianists can "feel" after touch, its presence, or lack of (if this were possible) does not effect sound off the piano diddly as far as what a pianist can do with it. If there was a way to achieve that safety measure without it , it wouldn't be there for pianists to fawn over how they prefer it (wide or narrow)as far as "feel" is concerned.

(Added) Incidently, Ted did mention a lot of subtle things and sometimes not so subtle things which pianists request from technicians as far as working on the piano. He also mentioned that its up to us as technicians to stand our ground if its malarky. In the same way that not all techs are accomplished pianists, the vice versa is also true.

Hi Emery,
I have to politely disagree. With no aftertouch, you can not "pick" the notes out of the air. Any pianist who plays on a well regulated piano with even and sufficient aftertouch, can experiment with playing to the "second keyboard" which is a line, just off the bottom of the keybed. Experienced pianists will play "through" to the bottom of the key stroke with the right hand, but play to the second keyboard with the left hand, to achieve a difference in feel, tone, and volume between melody and accompaniment. Ted Sambell most certainly must have taught this at GBC.
You infere that it is not possible to achieve no aftertouch; "if that were possible". It most certainly is possible. Just add a thick paper punching under the key and the note will feel like you are playing a concrete piano. The thud at the bottom, and no feel of where the note speaks, makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck just thinking about it.
If you experiment with the second keyboard on a piano with proper and even aftertouch, you will begin to "fawn" about it as well.

Blüthner actions were designed not to have aftertouch. It is in the regulation specs.

Well Mark, I take things that pianists say with a healthy grain of salt these days. I didn't say that pianists "didn't think it made a difference", I just simply stated a fact that all a pianist can do with tone (outside of use of pedals) via the piano key is control the velocity of the hammer up to the point of escapement. This is just tone variation related to amplitude variation, an unalterable relationship. To this effect, one just needs to play harder or softer. After touch occurs after escapement so nothing you do with it, ie. fully acheiving it or coming up short of it, will change the tone outside of what I mentioned (velocity related). I suppose there is the bottoming thud that occurs when the key bottoms out on a hard stroke, but this too I don't consider pertinant to music and we could live without it. Not sure what you mean with the term "pick the notes out of the air" unless there's maybe a bong involved in the process.

http://blog.twedt.com/archives/222

thanks everyone. i am in the process of modifying the last block i got from Schaff so I have .375 over the pin. the main problem i had, was i set everything (roughing it in)and then found the dip is way to close. the piano still plays but it feel terrible.
Putting on for a moment my pianist hat, Emmery, while I understand what you say, I have to disagree. I think knowing where and how much aftertouch is expected on a piano, greatly enhances the ability to play it. I often have pieces where I have to play so quickly that it happens before the jack has come back under (all the way)and it is somewhat automatic that my fingers come up to where i last felt the jack escape and the key go into aftertouch. I play for just before (it is almost a thought process rather than feel) the key went into aftertouch for the next sound. This will also produce an extemely quiet sound, very ethereal. I much rather adjust for a consistent AT than dip. Although I certainly like an even dip, I use the feel of the AT to tell me where I am after escapement.
and Yes, 1.5mm. is a little much and makes lots of lost energy, but for me, it is easier when playing some music. In general, I like a feel more along 1.2mm (.047"). --I know some pianists like hardly any, but I think (as long as it is within reason) it is what is liked by the pianist, so, I recant my 1.5 mm, ha.
Still--for me, the feel of the same key dip is not nearly as important as knowing how much there is and expecting the same aftertouch on every key. It is my guide, especially when playing softly.
Thanks again everyone.
Some of this is my own fault for using a new dip block that I had not tested. I had no idea they would send me a block that was set for 3/8 at the front.
& thanks for all the ideas on how to construct blocks.
Bob

sunlight I understand what your saying about the tactile feedback given to a pianist from after touch. I won't elaborate on my views of what they think they are doing with it as far as music goes. I know a lot of great pianists that don't even know what after touch is. I am pretty sure if the actions were made in such a way that aftertouch was not necessary for mechanical reasons in acoustic pianos, I doubt piano manufacturers would bother to simulate it simply for "feed back reasons".

Even various digital instruments and synthesizers incorporated "after touch" beginning in the late 70's (CS80) but these actually effected the sound dynamics if one pressed the key all the way down with x amount of pressure, not for some tactile feedback to the pianist.

I think you may still be missing what Emmery is trying to get you to see. A given spec is not likely to be magic -- .375" or anything else. (Not that it isn't fine to choose that, too). The point is that hammer travel and key travel have to "fit" each other. In order to achieve aftertouch, you can either make the hammer travel fit the available key travel or make the key travel fit the hammer travel that has been set. Within reason, it doesn't matter a whole lot what the exact numbers turn out to be. What matters to the pianist is primarily the "fit". The quickest way to deal with the issue would be to raise the capstans about 1/4 turn . . .

Jurgen, could you post a picture of this modified block? I'm very interested... (Alternately, I'd be happy to hear from you via PM.)

As others said, it's the relationship of key travel to hammer travel that is crucial, rather than just focusing on a spec from a manufacturer or what a given key dip block measures. If you are truly maximizing the potential of a given action you will likely need to change dip ever so slightly for the best results, from one piano to another.

I use the WNG key dip tool and it makes the job go quickly and accurately. The variability and the consistent weight (400 grams) make it superior to wooden blocks. It's heavy so it only comes with me on a regulation job. I carry modified wood blocks for everyday fieldwork/diagnosis.

Attaining consistent keydip - no matter what type of tool used - is first having completely leveled natural keys that are squared and spaced evenly. If the keys aren't truly level from AO - C8 then the key dip won't be consistent either. It also helps immensely if the key bushings and all the rail punchings are in good or better condition too.

With sharp key dip I have experimented with different techniques and really believe that the best method is to set sharp dip according to aftertouch, not with a tool. (Hats off once again to Bill Spurlock.) Like natural key leveling, sharp key leveling is not negotiable, but sharp dip can be for the best results. Again, I do not want any variation in natural key dip from one note to the next.

Last weekend I regulated a 60's M&H A for a great pianist at his studio. As an experiment, I varied key dip punchings in a certain area of the piano and he was able to detect exactly where I had done so, with green punchings. (Those are .005) We determined that he prefers a deeper dip than I do, so I accommodated his wishes by simply increasing hammer blow to get consistent (and less) aftertouch, and the regulation came out great. I never underestimate the intuition of a pianist, and I am also willing to alter the amount of dip from my personal taste to make the player happy.

I find pianos with either inadequate or too much aftertouch every day. If it's correct on every note then someone took pains to make it that way, and those types of setups are a joy to play on. And as another tech above alluded to, something's gotta give in the imperfect world of piano actions. For me, natural key dip must remain consistent, so I will make slight alterations on hammer blow and/or letoff -if need be - on individual notes to attain consistent aftertouch. These types of alterations are so slight that they would be virtually unnoticeable when looking at the hammer line or at the hammers letting off at the strings - almost microscopic refinements.

I use a 10mm dip block as a starting point and seek a uniform aftertouch which as a pianist is more important and perceptible. I like Mark's rationalizations.