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Hi, I just wanted to know how you would count in the first movement of the piece. Do you take it as 4 beats and measure the quavers as triplets or do you take it as 12 beats as written?
Schumann Carnaval, Op.9 Debussy Prelude Book 1, No.6 and No. 7 Bach WTC1 Prelude and Fugue No. 1 in C Major
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The time signature 12/8 doesn't imply 12 beats, it implies 4 beats, each beat comprised of three 1/8 notes. You should definitely think of it as 4 beats.
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Can't agree with debrucey ... sorry chaps.
Appassionata Sonata Opus 57 by Beethoven
12/8 indicates that the measures are divided into 12 triplets although essentially in common duple time.
Measures are made up of 3 of these 4-triplet units.
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Can't agree with debrucey ... sorry chaps.
Appassionata Sonata Opus 57 by Beethoven
12/8 indicates that the measures are divided into 12 triplets although essentially in common duple time.
Measures are made up of 3 of these 4-triplet units.
Are you looking at the same piece? He beams it in 4 groups of 3 eighth notes. There are no triplets.
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Uh, btb... You know that 6/8 is two beats, right? So 12/8 is four beats. OP: It is 4 beats debrucey is correct.
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A triplet is three beats in the space of two. There are no triplets in Appassionata. They are compound beats, and there's 4 of them. Like OSK said, 6/8 time is two beats, not six.
Last edited by debrucey; 11/03/12 01:56 PM.
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Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonne heure, but not anymore!
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Not sure why there is any debate about this. When I first made acquaintance of this incredible piece at... what, 12 years old?... it was obviously felt in '4', nothing else.
Jason
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I do not claim to know the answer here but if understand things correctly Taub seems to disagree with what's been said so far by most posters. He says: "Sketches indicate that Beethoven originally conceived of this movement in 4/4 time. As his conception evolved, he changed the meter to 12/8 time. Therefore, the pulse within each measure is 12 rather than 4."
I personally agree with those that say the "feel" is in 4.
Last edited by pianoloverus; 11/03/12 07:51 PM.
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ok, from now on let's count to 12 instead of 4, haha
Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonne heure, but not anymore!
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Try conducting all 12 beats!!
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i did, and I decided that 4 is the best way, I don't bloody know who came up with idea to do otherwise, a modernist/retro cembalist no dought
Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonne heure, but not anymore!
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The pulse is not 12! If you think it is you simply don't understand the notation of compound time.
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The pulse is not 12! If you think it is you simply don't understand the notation of compound time. I was only saying what Taub said. I do remember seeing a master class(don't remember who)where the teacher made a big thing out of why Beethoven chose 12/8 instead of 4/4. Unfortunately, I don't remember what he said about this.
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Try conducting all 12 beats!! Yeah mate, that would most certainly wear me out. Why would an issue such as this come up? Elementary music theory, plain and simple.
Jason
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Things are still foggy in the joking Netherlands ... however ...
Please chaps ... count the number of notes in measure 14 Appassionata Allegro assai ... 24 notes in 4 double-beamed groups. (The double beam indicates semi-quavers/16th notes)
By m17 Beethoven syncopates the off-beat rhythm, and groups 4/12ths into a rising chordal motif, ending on a grand held octave in the upper reaches of the keyboard.
Thanks pianoloverus for this
"Sketches indicate that Beethoven originally conceived of this movement in 4/4 time. As his conception evolved, he changed the meter to 12/8 time. Therefore, the pulse within each measure is 12 rather than 4." It’s nice to be right for a change ... please no rocks!!
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There are 12 QUAVERS in each measure but the PULSE is in 4. This is a pretty fundamental distinction and Im really astounded that you dont understand it.
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Easy, boys.
Let's just say it's 12 in 4. Beethoven seemed to think so, too, given how many times he writes out the "unspoken" stream of triplets in that movement.
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No, there is simply no middle ground on this. The distinction is very clear. The bar has 12 quavers, but 4 beats. Either btb is trolling or he genuinely doesn't understand the difference between pulse and number of notes in a bar.
Last edited by debrucey; 11/04/12 07:30 AM.
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btb: You use one of the most inappropriate bars to try to prove the pulse is in 12. Bar 14 is clearly 4 groups of semi-quavers, moreover, if anyone were to play it in 12, it would result in 12 two note units to each bar and I shudder to think what that would sound like, given that a pianist has to indicate to the listener what the basic pulse is. The whole movement in my edition (Tovey AB)is presented very clearly with a 4 to the bar pulse.
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