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Sonatina 6 - Rondo

I think I found the rondo form:

A mm 1 - mid 8
B mm mid8 - 12
A mm mid-12 - 16, or further if end is a codetta
C mm25 - 39
"A" mm 39 - start of 44; feels like a variation of A
D to end (theme repeats itself twice)
Then da capo al fine brings us to mm 1 - 23 = A, B, A

The A's have variations.

Edit: Greener, my divisions are where yours are, but I've added a few.

Sonatina No.6, Rondo

Well I differ from each of you.

In accordance with Clementi's previous ventures into the Rondo form this is again ternary ABA.

A is a seven-and-a-half bar theme (M1-8), repeated (M8-15) and closed (M16-24). We're in D major throughout.

B is the remainder; variations of and ideas from the previous material. The keys are D major, A major from M27, through A minor to E major at M33 closing back to A major at M39 where another idea/variation begins and maintains the key to the end of the section.

Heaps more fun to play than to analyse.

You are right, A repeats three times in the beginning. My bad. I still do hear m 39 - 44 as a close variation to A, which would go with what you wrote about variations. Since it has a development, is it a kind of rondo sonata-form clone?

This conclusion all makes sense to me, as well. Just getting back to this now and getting caught up to finish line of Sonatine no. 6.

Thanks again Richard, for guiding us all through the process and this quite in-depth study thread of Clementi Sonatines'. And to everyone else that participated and also shared a wealth of knowledge and perspective. Everyone's insight and free sharing, is very much appreciated.



Yes, I imagine it would be and I am getting quite a back log of material I would like to come back to and work on.

The entire process of analysis has and is, also fun and is highly educational for me. We (or at least since I got involved) have been at this ("the study threads") quite steady now since the Moonlight Sonata Study thread in mid August. So over 2 months. Doesn't seem like this long ...

Where am I going with this ... just that it is really great stuff and keen to move forward with more.

Has everyone finished sonatina no. 6?

So, where now?

If we continue with the sonata we'd be working at a level beyond our immediate playing ability. Is this what we want?

We have still have to cover the minor key also.

I have my own ideas about direction but what do other people want?

Any thoughts from the silent followers that make up our almost 29000 views?

I'm ready to move ahead, but would like to hear from the others.

What about Mendelssohn?

Not sure if the selections from the future "themed recital" are good choices for analysis -- they all look short -- . But, from a timing perspective there may be some interest in understanding the pieces better in preparation.

Otherwise, happy to follow other preference.

I have yet to listen closely to the Sonatina #6 movement 2, and I hope to do so. May or may not have anything to say once I've done that.

Happy to go anywhere the group decides, and don't mind if it's playable by me at my current stage or not. Going to Mendelssohn will introduce us to a more complex harmonic language than what we've dealt with so far in Clementi, or so I believe, which could be a good thing.

Richard, you have studied the various works. You would probably be a good judge of what is best to introduce and in what order from a teaching perspective for what won't make us lost, and what might be interesting, maybe in that order. (Hopefully not putting you on the spot). I'm fine for anything, and enjoying the ride. I do like Mendelssohn.

I think not. Mendelssohn's Songs Without Words, while perfect in their own way, take ternary form as the structure, rather like Clementi's rondos. They are a theme, an expansion of it and a restatement of it. Some of them have little introductions and codas, eg. op. 30 no. 3. But they do not test the emotions with dissonance nor stray far from the beaten path.

They are the musical equivalent of a sandwich. Nutritious and perfectly made, but not adventurous fare, harmonically, lyrically, or structurally.

We've already seen what a page of Chopin can do but we've also looked at music from more perspectives than harmonic analysis. There's a thematic analysis, a structural one, an investigation of the proportion and symmetry, the unity, the tension and release and those devices that send shivers down the spine and keep us coming back for more.
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Are you after something simple that you can play yourself and analyse easily?

Are you after something more demanding harmonically but without the scale of a full blown sonata while you consoldiate your skills?

Or do you want to continue with the sonata and look at some of the major works?

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My preference would be to continue with the sonata but to go a little slower than we have thus far and spend a little more time on each piece. I'd like to choose pieces that are worth spending time on and learn them more thoroughly, not just to play them (or not even to play them) but to be able to listen to them and appreciate their inner beauty with an intimacy normally reserved for the performer.

A sample route - I haven't analysed any of these yet except the Liszt, so they may be subject to change - it's just an indication of my intended direction:

Haydn Sonata No. 60 in C major, Hob. XVI:50
One of his more mature works. The other options would be either of the two big E flat sonatas, Hob. XVI 49 or 52.

Mozart Sonata in A, K 331
What better way to develop pattern recognition skills than studying variation form? The Alla Turca is immensely popular. There are many others from the same pen if someone has a preference.

Clementi Sonata in F# minor, Op. 25 No. 5
There's a reason Beethoven preferred that his nephew Carl learnt Clementi's sonatas rather than Mozart's. This would redress the balance after studying the feller only in his sonatinas. His major works drew the admiration not just of Beethoven but also Brahms and pianists such as Horowitz and lately Demidenko.

Beethoven Sonata in C minor, Op. 13, "Pathétique"
Again, there are many other choices here.

Schubert Sonata in B Flat, D. 960
Any of the last three sonatas would be worthy of time spent.

I don't think the sonata is complete without a good look at Liszt's B minor sonata, either. I know these are daunting pieces and we've already burned our fingers on lesser heat but I really don't believe we have to approach analysis with surgical precision. We just need to know what's going on enough to appreciate it a bit more. I can enjoy looking at Michelangelo's David or Raphael's Galatea without knowing how to sculpt or mix paints.

Yes



Yes



Yes
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Sorry, Richard. Not trying to be a smarty, but it is all good for me and really have no preference on the above. Although, the way you have listed them seems appropriate. The first Bach Prelude No. 1 we did, for example was a good pace for me, as I could actually read it and learn to play it and still keep up with the analysis. But, I am surely not going to do that with all of them. So, for me, I am really quite fine with whatever direction is preferred and will still be keen to follow.

My choice from the selection of Sonatas you have listed would be the Beethoven, Pathetique. Of the others I have no real leaning but may suggest we stay with Clementi for now, but on a greater work, before venturing off too quickly.

Just my two cents ...

I can live with that.

Let's work in tranches and do an easy/playable piece, something more adventurous then another sonata. Then we can look at the next tranche.

How about Mendelssohn's Op. 102 No. 6, then Schubert's Moment Musical No. 6 and then Haydn's Sonata no. 50? I want to keep the sonatas in a chronological/progressive order.

Sounds terrific to me. I just happen to be working on Mendelssohn Op. 102 No. 6. What an amazing coincidence

I'd be happy to come back with all the chords if you like (say up to m18 to start?) I've been meaning to do this anyway, but just haven't yet.

Just let me know how you want to proceed and I shall follow.

I believe PS88, is still looking more at Sonatina No. 6, so happy to wait a bit before we throttle ahead.

Brilliant, Thx

Not such an amazing coincidence - I checked the recital thread to see which one you were on!

When everyone's ready you can do a full analysis - chords, keys, structure, themes. Anything you can find. Do you have your checklist?

I was able to retrieve it among my archives and have pasted again here for everyone's refreshment and easier reference.

Looks like I've got some work to do, but will be ready when all others are.

Giant disclosure here, we are starting in the key of C Major and the first chord is ... wait for it ... C

However, I know I am racing way ahead and still need to understand what this Mr. Mendelssohn gent was all about. I really know nothing about him. But we all soon will.

At one point we'll need access to the music, of course.

Book 8, op. 102 (1842–1845); No. 6 Andante in C major - Download

(cross-posted)

Here is the IMSLP page for Mendelssohn's Opus 102.

Just some preliminary background information which is perhaps of some value as we get things underway again with Mendelssohn OP 102. These are just excerpts from Wikipedia and full encyclopedia content is here.

Jakob Ludwig Felix Mendelssohn Bartholdy generally known in English-speaking countries, as Felix Mendelssohn

• born on 3 February 1809, Hamburg, Germany into a prominent Jewish family
• recognized early as a musical prodigy
• was the second of four children; his older sister Fanny also displayed exceptional and precocious musical talent

Fanny became a well-known pianist and amateur composer; originally Abraham (father, a banker) had thought that she, rather than Felix, would be the more musical. However, at that time, it was not considered proper, by either Abraham or Felix, for a woman to have a career in music, so Fanny remained an active, but non-professional musician. Abraham was also disinclined to allow Felix to follow a musical career until it became clear that he intended seriously to dedicate himself to it.

Abraham Mendelssohn renounced the Jewish religion; Felix and his siblings were first brought up without religious education, and were baptised as Lutherans in 1816, at which time Felix took the additional names Jakob Ludwig. Abraham and his wife Lea were baptised in 1822, formally adopting the surname Mendelssohn Bartholdy (which they had used since 1812) for themselves and their children.

Like Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart before him, Mendelssohn was regarded as a child prodigy. After the family moved to Berlin, all four Mendelssohn children studied piano with Ludwig Berger, who was himself a former student of Muzio Clementi.

Felix was a prolific composer from an early age. As an adolescent, his works were often performed at home with a private orchestra for the associates of his wealthy parents amongst the intellectual elite of Berlin. Between the ages of 12 and 14, Mendelssohn wrote 12 string symphonies for such concerts. These works were ignored for over a century, but are now recorded and occasionally played in concerts. His works show his study of Baroque and early classical music. His fugues and chorales especially reflect a tonal clarity and use of counterpoint reminiscent of Johann Sebastian Bach, by whose music he was deeply influenced.

In the course of ten visits to Britain during his life, totalling about 20 months, Mendelssohn won a strong following, sufficient for him to make a deep impression on British musical life.

After a long period of relative denigration due to changing musical tastes and anti-Semitism in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, his creative originality has now been recognised and re-evaluated. He is now among the most popular composers of the Romantic era.

Greener, I really like this performance.