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#1980652 - 10/30/12 06:12 PM Voicing problem
Jim Moy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/06/07
Posts: 295
Loc: Fort Collins - Loveland, CO
The patient is a 1995 Yamaha C2, and the tone in a particular area of the bass has been bothering a customer.

The file linked below is an mp3 file I recorded with my iPhone. It's a diatonic octave being played from C2.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/147189/yamaha-c2.mp3

The sound he doesn't like is most evident on the seventh and eighth notes played on the recording, and the same two notes on the way back down the scale. Can anyone identify the source of the sound, and suggest a remedy? The sound reminds me of a "normal" bass note being played simultaneously with a large drop of water dripping into my tub when the bathroom is quiet. Maybe a little "woodier" than that. And shortened up in duration. The onomatopoeia might be "poink, poink" for that portion of the sound. Depending on what the customer is playing and where I am standing, the sound may be more or less obvious. Neither of us noticed the sound on the pre-purchase inspection. Since the move, he has had a Dampp-Chaser installed.

I've isolated it from the dampers, damper levers, and damper stop rail. I've tightened the screws on the hammer shank flanges and checked the hammer glue joints are sound. Hammer mating is good. I forgot to check traveling. I can make the sound more prominent by shifting the action "out" of the cavity about a quarter to a half inch, for a slightly shorter speaking length. Seems to be happening only on the bichords. I've done some delicate single-needle voicing just enough to alter the tone but notice it wasn't diminishing the objectionable sound. I'm hesitant to just jump in and experiment (juice up the hammer?) because it's already got a nice, even, "Yamaha" sound.



Edited by Jim Moy (10/30/12 06:14 PM)
Edit Reason: link
_________________________
Jim Moy, RPT
Moy Piano Service, LLC
Fort Collins and Loveland, Colorado
http://www.moypiano.com

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#1980655 - 10/30/12 06:31 PM Re: Voicing problem [Re: Jim Moy]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Hi Jim,

I don't like the sound in the 4th and especially the 5th notes. To me they stand way out as being harsh and brassy sounding standing out way more than the others.

I might consider voicing those two down to match the others around it. Many times if we voice the outstanding notes around the notes that they are complaining about, that eliminates the complaint.

I did that at a concert tuning not all that long ago. The notes that were actually bothering her, were not the notes she was complaining about but, more prominent outstanding ones nearby instead. Once I voiced the other "few" around it down just a tad, the others matched perfectly and she was happy as a lark. smile
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1980671 - 10/30/12 07:12 PM Re: Voicing problem [Re: Jim Moy]
Terry Benge Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 125
Loc: Southeastern Ky
I agree with Jerry. 4th and 5th note. Try isolating each string of the bichord and see which one sticks out the most and do some light voicing. Also you might seat the string or strings at the bridge. It shouldn't take very much.
_________________________
PTG Associate
Steinway Studio
Yamaha CP300

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#1980675 - 10/30/12 07:15 PM Re: Voicing problem [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
granzombi Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/29/08
Posts: 1
Loc: New Orleans
I completely agree with Jerry, those are the ones that bugged me much more. Blend those in and the others may work better or the problem may be a bit more obvious. It always amazes me how different pianos sound in different locations. I had a running battle with a teflon era B in a teaching studio that sounded dead and wooden. When it moved to the pianists house it was suddenly very powerful and and very uneven in areas that had been dull but smooth before. You can never tell till you get it in place.
_________________________
Dave Doremus RPT
New Orleans

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#1980695 - 10/30/12 08:33 PM Re: Voicing problem [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
Jim Moy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/06/07
Posts: 295
Loc: Fort Collins - Loveland, CO
Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot, and others...
...I don't like the sound in the 4th and especially the 5th notes. To me they stand way out as being harsh and brassy sounding standing out way more than the others.

I understand, but the customer is fine with the "harshness" (even though I tried to lead him to that without making it sound like a defect) and he was very specific about the part of the sound he didn't like.
_________________________
Jim Moy, RPT
Moy Piano Service, LLC
Fort Collins and Loveland, Colorado
http://www.moypiano.com

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#1980701 - 10/30/12 08:49 PM Re: Voicing problem [Re: Terry Benge]
Jim Moy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/06/07
Posts: 295
Loc: Fort Collins - Loveland, CO
Originally Posted By: Terry B
I agree with Jerry. 4th and 5th note. Try isolating each string of the bichord and see which one sticks out the most and do some light voicing.
Good point, I hadn't tried isolating the bichord strings. And (smack-forehead) I didn't tune the unisons before doing the listening. Hopefully I'll be invited back when I refer a local colleague to him.
_________________________
Jim Moy, RPT
Moy Piano Service, LLC
Fort Collins and Loveland, Colorado
http://www.moypiano.com

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#1980703 - 10/30/12 08:51 PM Re: Voicing problem [Re: Jim Moy]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 24786
Loc: Oakland
I tell my clients that I have to start by making everything even. There is more that can be done afterwards, but you need to start with a base of even tone.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1980755 - 10/30/12 11:08 PM Re: Voicing problem [Re: Jim Moy]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
I know, I understand too Jim. smile

Sometimes, it's what we don't point out to the customer and just do silently without them even being aware of it as I did above with the concert artist when they left the room that makes the biggest difference. What she thought was wrong was in fact, not wrong. The opposite was true and quite often is the case in many other instances. She just didn't know it yet. wink

I'm saying the obvious to you you but, I'll say it anyway for others. The more we point out, the more it gives them to look at and to compare. The less we say sometimes, makes life easier for us to figure out, for them.

I agree with the rest of the above statements as well. Seating bridges, even bridge pins. Seating the strings on the agraffes may help somewhat too. All of it is worth a try.

Also check the bridges to make sure the wires are not connecting anywhere past the bridge pins on those harsher notes or, on the others as well as that will cause both the harsh sound and/or create a 'duller' sound if you will.
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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