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Sure, but gotta run now. So, back tomorrow.

I was thinking m1-2 as antecedent ... and m3-4 as consequent. But thought for sure you weren't gonna like it ...

Next time I'll just go with what I really think and face the music.

Oooo can I play too? I just started analysis lessons this month.

I'm not familiar with antecedent and consequent. Does it have to do with cadences? Like, a question phrase and an answer phrase?

You're very welcome to join in, LadyChen.

Antecedence/consequence is not really to do with cadences but yes, it's very much like question and answer. It's about balance in the phrasing, the first two measures are balanced by the the next two and so on.

Don't let the jargon bother you and don't hesitate to ask questions.

We're about to move on to the third movement of Clementi's third sonatina but past material is always still current if there's anything we've covered that you need clarifying or want to ask more questions about.

I've seen the term used numerous times too. I am afraid that any jargon that I'm not familiar with bothers me too, because anyone who doesn't know what the terms mean is then left out of the discussion.

I think that what you're talking about is a classical and simple structure which in its simplest level happens over 8 measures in two groups of four.

Measure 1 & measure 2 will build a phrase that (in simple form) will ** often **(1) end with an imperfect cadence such as I-V, IV-V etc., and the final melody note tends not to end on the tonic. You have the feeling of incompletion: hence the "question" part of "question-answer". Measures 3&4 will be similar to the first two, so you feel a relationship, and it typically ends in a perfect cadence of V-I.

Measures 5-8 will have the same 2+2 structure and it feels related to the first. So it's like [(call-answer)(call-answer)] where the 8 together have the feeling of a unit. The whole thing tends to be called a phrase. This whole grouping is called a period. The first "call-answer" is the antecedent, and the second "call-answer" is the consequent. I'm thinking that the general idea of a unit that we can hear and feel might be a good start. Maybe sticking with "phrase groups" is a good start with anyone unfamiliar with the other terms. (I studied phrase groups. I know what ant. & cons. are, but haven't worked with them as such).

(1) I have added the word "often" because while that's how it was presented in my theory, in real music it's not a steady pattern. The sample that I found afterward does not have this, but it does have the imperfect (ending in V) cadence at the end of the first phrase group ("antecedent")

Even "question and answer" is jargon -- or at least terms someone might not understand what it means musically -- as illustrated by the fact that you've just felt that it would be useful to explain it.

In your explanation you used another term "imperfect cadence" and suggested that I-V and IV-V are examples of imperfect cadence. But that doesn't define "imperfect cadence", so even as you speak against technical terms, you are using them. Either we have to try to remember to explain every single term we use, which I think is unwieldy, or we have to trust that people will be willing to ask questions when they don't know something.

I don't think it's possible to make any thread a jargon-free zone, because what's obvious natural language to one person is going to be jargon to another person who doesn't know the definition yet, or even if they do know the definition, they may not have the experience to work with that concept as quickly and broadly as others do with more experience.

Let's feel free to use any 'jargon' that we are comfortable with, and to ask questions if we don't understand the jargon someone else is using.

I've transcribed an illustration in a textbook that was passed on to me that explains "antecedent" and "consequent". The markings are my own. Measures 1 & 2, then 3 & 4 are little mini-units by themselves (name?), and together they form one phrase, or phrase group. The ending hangs in the air so it has this complete / not-complete feeling like a question has. Measures 5 - 8 (each time starting at the pickup) has a parallel structure. The ending definitely sounds complete. Fwiw, the whole thing is called a "period".

Some explanations from the text:
- The period consists of a grouping of phrases which ends with an impression of closure. I'm seeing it as a paragraph that introduces, explains, and then concludes an idea. The phrases would be like sentences in that paragraph.
- The book uses the word "interact" which is cool, because all the things going on in the music work together to give an overall impression.

This is the start of "The Wild Rider" from Schumann's Album for the Young, Op. 58, No. 8

Sub-phrases.

It may be an over-generalization, but I'm thinking that antecedent phrases end with an open cadence and consequent phrases end with a closed cadence.

OK, I tried googling (and wikipedia immediately gave me far more than I have ever been able to absorb about cadences), but I can't find "open cadence". What do you mean by closed cadence and open cadence? What do you mean by cadence?

Wikipedia actually gives a decent definition of a cadence:



A closed cadence sounds complete -- V-I is an example. It closes on the tonic, giving it a sound of completion or closure. An open cadence doesn't end on the tonic. Keystring gave the examples of IV-V or I-V above. In those examples, the dominant (V) chord leaves the phrase sounding incomplete, like something must follow it. This is why these phrases are sometimes called Question phrases, and the phrase that follows often has a closed cadence, making it an Answer phrase.

Thanks, Lady Chen.

Is V-I or V7-I the only example of a closed cadence? Can other pairs or sequences of chords sound complete? (I just remembered plagal: IV-I. Is that also a closed cadence?) Does a closed cadence have to end on I?

Is ending on V the only open cadence, or can you end on any chord (other than I) and still have an open cadence?

In traditional (western) harmony, a closed cadence ends on I (so yes, a plagal would be a closed cadence), and an open cadence ends on V.

OK, thank you. Whenever I have tried to learn about cadences, there's always way more information than I can absorb -- and of course I try to absorb it all -- so it's nice to get this as a little package of information I can remember and look for: closed I, open V.

I wrote my feelings about jargon, rather than speaking out against them, and I immediately went to explaining the terminology, and then wrote another post with a concrete example.

If this series of threads is a general exploration on a topic in the way that forum threads usually are, then possibly yes. But my understanding is that this thread was set up for the purpose of teaching. When I teach, I do set up the concepts and terms behind the concepts. I don't know if it is unwieldy. I tend to think it is necessary. It is very possible that Richard did explain "antecedent / consequent" at some point, and that it's buried. It seemed like a good idea to get a definition out there, so I did.

Adding to Lady Chen's explanation, which is the same as what I understand, there is a broader overall concept of cadence as being where the music pauses or ends. The cadence is also indicated by a change in rhythm and other clues that make us feel the pause or ending.

Perfect cadences, as LC said, indicate a completion, which is why they end on I. When the music finishes, it logically ends on the tonic and the tonic chord. At the very end of the piece, your final note in the melody will also tend to be the tonic note. In the middle, you may have a V-I, but in C major, your melody note might be E (3), which makes you feel the music wants to still go on.

Imperfect cadences are the pause, and they tend to end on V. You can have I-V, IV-V and also some other combinations, but these are the most common.

There is another interesting cadence called "deceptive", which is the V-vi. It is "deceptive" because you have the feeling that it has ended, but it hasn't. There is a reason for this. Consider this in the key of C major. I is CEG. vi is ACE. They both share the notes CE. You can have the soprano note land on C so your mind says "Ah, it's finished!". You hear the E with it, and you still have this feeling of a I-chord. But the final chord is minor, which is not the sound of the I chord, and the bass has not leaped a solid fifth or fourth from G to C (down or up). Instead it climbs a measly whole step from G to A, which negates that impression of finality.

I'm glad to know what they call it in your neck of the woods. When it comes to the sub-phrase, different sources give different names, with a couple of them saying "We don't really have a name for this that everyone can agree on, so let's call it (some name)." As a result, I've ended up with this "nameless two-measure thingy" which is less than satisfying. I like "sub-phrase.


That's what I see too. It makes sense.

Movement 3: Allegro, C Major

A - M1 - M16

All the content here is based on exposition from first movement.

B - M17 - M42

Some of the content here is founded from the development of movement 1 (M31-M42.)
Move to G Major at M23

A - M43 - 60 C Major

A - M61 - END C Major

This is how I hear it, but not sure if it makes sense. Perhaps just A B A.

Is "perfect cadence" the same as "closed cadence"? Is "imperfect cadence" the same as "open cadence"?

Is "deceptive cadence" only V-vi? Or is it more generally V-<anything but I>?

I haven't defined antecedence and consequence. I have always used them in their English sense rather than in a specifically musical definition - I hadn't realised the terms had been so precisely defined other than that THE antecedent was the subject of a canon. I think I may stop using the terms and find some other non-musically specific phraseology like 'balancing half' or some such.

Cadences as I understand them are:
a final cadence ends on tonic: V-I perfect; IV-I plagal
an imperfect cadence ends on dominant (usually from I, II or IV)
an interrupted cadence moves from dominant to something other than tonic, usually VI.

From this I would understand a closed cadence (?-I) and an open cadence (?-V).

This doesn't concur with Wiki which made it look like rocket science and calls an imperfect cadence a half-cadence. I'm not at all sure what it defines an imperfect cadence as.

I may stop using these terms as well and again find a simple English phraseology such as inconclusive or unfinished. I'd rather call it a V-VI or a I-V cadence and let the ear give it a definition.

The more I learn, the more I realise how little I know...and how much less I care.

In my readings about cadence over the years, the only thing I have concluded is there's an awful lot of terminology, not everyone agrees on the terms, and different people use the same terms for different things. I don't mind using the different cadence terms in this thread, but they'll need clarifying so we can all understand each other.