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Re: Bluthner rebuild [Re: lluiscl] #1978698
10/25/12 10:07 PM
10/25/12 10:07 PM
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Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
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Originally Posted by lluiscl
... Actually no only Blüthner or Fazioli if not Bechstein, Sauter, Grotrian, August Förster and (I think also) Bösendorfer use it. All top brands.
This is what I said - it is used in the industrial manufacturing of pianos. But Bösendorfer has never used Delignit, they use their own laminated maple blocks.

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Re: Bluthner rebuild [Re: RK4211] #1979179
10/27/12 03:30 AM
10/27/12 03:30 AM
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France
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Bluethner hammers :

I consider that the hammers sold by the factory are necessary if one want to keep the original tone.
They are all bored 90° on the shank, but sliced with an angle.

The only hammers that can be gang filed all along

I have compared Bluethner mounted with standard hammers, and with the good ones : the tone is really different.

(also they have a very good felt and pressing, voicing is very quickly done, a pleasure to work with (but provide them strings height and flange center height so you receive the good hammers for your instrument)

PS Pinblock is a part of the sound body on first grade grands (due to transmission of vibrations within the case and keybed, the differnce when delignit is used is obvious)

Then, Delignit is a good material also, for instance on a piano where the case is supposed to be inert and the iron plate is more active to colour the tone, the pinblock can be heavy and non resonant, but maple traditional blocks are always better (for pin tightness also I prefer them)

Last edited by Kamin; 10/27/12 03:34 AM.

Professional of the profession.
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I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Bluthner rebuild [Re: RK4211] #1979223
10/27/12 08:25 AM
10/27/12 08:25 AM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 440
new york city
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new york city
I know that Estonia uses Delignit or Dehonit pinblocks in their current production. Not sure what brand is used, but Bluthner and August Forster also use multiple ply pinblocks.

I'm trying to wrap my head around the idea of pinblock material influencing the tonal outcome of a piano, but am doubtful that it makes any difference whatsoever. If it did I would have to believe that companies like Forster and Bluthner would use something else, or would design a more "proprietary" material.



Keyboardist & Composer, Piano Technician
www.jamescarney.net
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Re: Bluthner rebuild [Re: wayne walker] #1979253
10/27/12 09:59 AM
10/27/12 09:59 AM
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Europe
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Yes, Bolduc, thanks Wayne. It is a great material. Very much like the Steinway blocks (Maybe Steinway even buy from there).

All what Jurgen has written in this matter here is definitely correct, and so there is no need to replicate.

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Re: Bluthner rebuild [Re: Olek] #1979277
10/27/12 11:42 AM
10/27/12 11:42 AM
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Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
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Originally Posted by Kamin
Bluethner hammers :
I consider that the hammers sold by the factory are necessary if one want to keep the original tone.
Note that factories do not make the hammers, they buy them from hammer makers. When they re-sell them, it is at a profit margin that supply houses can only dream of. (ie. cheaper to buy elsewhere...)

Re: Bluthner rebuild [Re: RK4211] #1979382
10/27/12 05:12 PM
10/27/12 05:12 PM
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France
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Wemll of course Jurgen , but some of them are not abusing, often for vertical pianos (and can sell you the heads glued on selected shanks)

For grand pianos they have you pay for the eventual boring and the thinning-shaping of tails. sure the cost is 1/3 more than when buying hammers frome Renner or Abel, often.

What I said when it comes to the grand hammers for Bluethner, is just that you cannot find them elsewhere, to my knowledge, and that the extra cost is worth due to the quality and respect of original design.
The same apply to Hambourg Steinway and there you really pay some extra (but the shape of the felt differs from what is availeable otherwise

Non bored or thinned heads when ordered at the factory are yet at a reasonable price, to me, (generally speaking, not for any brand, one have to ask)



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I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Bluthner rebuild [Re: RK4211] #1979424
10/27/12 06:46 PM
10/27/12 06:46 PM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,962
London
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RK4211, I am very interested in old Bluthners, and I would be very grateful if you could post a picture or two of your piano. Particularly of the strings and plate.

Re: Bluthner rebuild [Re: Olek] #1979579
10/28/12 06:34 AM
10/28/12 06:34 AM
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Europe
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Twice I have ordered piano hammers from Bluthner, Leipzig and both times the hammers were sent directly from Abel with invoice from Abel.
After that, I order Bluthner hammers from Abel and the prices are the same.
Seems to me that Bluthner does not charge extra for customised piano hammers like some other manufacturers.

Re: Bluthner rebuild [Re: RK4211] #1979595
10/28/12 08:17 AM
10/28/12 08:17 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
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Abel does not sell officially the hammers sliced as at the factory, that I asked.

You received the hammers with standard slicing, or Bluethner slicing ?

as the slicing is what determines hammer orientation it have to be done differently for each model; I am not even sure Abel have the correct setup to do so, the last I received where visibly sliced artisanally, with a few mistakes, not as something done on high tech machinery


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Bluthner rebuild [Re: RK4211] #1979598
10/28/12 08:26 AM
10/28/12 08:26 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
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[Linked Image]

it is may be unseen on the pic , but all the wood moldings are straight 90° on the shank, no need to shape the tails gang filing style.

due to the slicing, the sides of the tails are also having their angles cut , but hammer traveling is easier than with the standard shape


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Bluthner rebuild [Re: RK4211] #1979599
10/28/12 08:33 AM
10/28/12 08:33 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
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yes if I buy non bored heads at the factory, for Bluethner the price is normal. then I have to bore al hammers with 0 degres angle, our boring jigs are not well adapted to that kind of job, as they use the side of the head as a support generally, there the side angle will differ depending of the location of the hammer


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Bluthner rebuild [Re: BDB] #1979994
10/29/12 06:45 AM
10/29/12 06:45 AM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 9
JHB, South Africa
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RK4211 Offline OP
Junior Member
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Posts: 9
JHB, South Africa
Originally Posted by BDB
A pinblock serves one purpose, to hold the pins against the tension of the strings while allowing them to be tuned properly. If you are experienced with Delignit, it should be fine. If you are not, you should not be trying it out on a good piano. Are you aware that you need to build up the pinblock?


I want to scan in the frame and invert the image. I will then use the inverted image and use a 3D milling machine to cut the new pin block. This will avoid having to build up the pin block and the milling machine will mill away the troughs.
This should make the fit more accurate and the work required will be less. The result should also be excellent as scanning and milling are to the micron in required.

Re: Bluthner rebuild [Re: Olek] #1979997
10/29/12 06:51 AM
10/29/12 06:51 AM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 9
JHB, South Africa
R
RK4211 Offline OP
Junior Member
RK4211  Offline OP
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R

Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 9
JHB, South Africa
Originally Posted by Kamin
Bluethner hammers :

I consider that the hammers sold by the factory are necessary if one want to keep the original tone.
They are all bored 90° on the shank, but sliced with an angle.

The only hammers that can be gang filed all along

I have compared Bluethner mounted with standard hammers, and with the good ones : the tone is really different.

(also they have a very good felt and pressing, voicing is very quickly done, a pleasure to work with (but provide them strings height and flange center height so you receive the good hammers for your instrument)

PS Pinblock is a part of the sound body on first grade grands (due to transmission of vibrations within the case and keybed, the differnce when delignit is used is obvious)

Then, Delignit is a good material also, for instance on a piano where the case is supposed to be inert and the iron plate is more active to colour the tone, the pinblock can be heavy and non resonant, but maple traditional blocks are always better (for pin tightness also I prefer them)


So the hammers from Bluthner is what I will get. How do you go about ordering the hanners? Do Bluthner sell and ship international?

I am now in two minds about either the Deliginit or the Maple-Buldoc pin block.

The original Bluthner one looks to be three laminated sections of wood. A large thick layer, a thinner middle layer and then a medium thickness lower layer. This has lasted about 100 years.

What is the oldest Delignit block you are aware of?

Re: Bluthner rebuild [Re: David-G] #1979998
10/29/12 06:54 AM
10/29/12 06:54 AM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 9
JHB, South Africa
R
RK4211 Offline OP
Junior Member
RK4211  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 9
JHB, South Africa
Originally Posted by David-G
RK4211, I am very interested in old Bluthners, and I would be very grateful if you could post a picture or two of your piano. Particularly of the strings and plate.


I will take some photos tonight and try and post tomorrow.

Re: Bluthner rebuild [Re: RK4211] #1980002
10/29/12 07:20 AM
10/29/12 07:20 AM
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 332
Europe
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You can order hammers directly from Bluthner.
Or you can send some samples to Abel and they will make them for you. Send them the first and last hammer with shanks from each section in the piano.

Go for the Buldoc pin block.

Re: Bluthner rebuild [Re: RK4211] #1980054
10/29/12 10:59 AM
10/29/12 10:59 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 26,900
Oakland
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Originally Posted by RK4211
Originally Posted by BDB
A pinblock serves one purpose, to hold the pins against the tension of the strings while allowing them to be tuned properly. If you are experienced with Delignit, it should be fine. If you are not, you should not be trying it out on a good piano. Are you aware that you need to build up the pinblock?


I want to scan in the frame and invert the image. I will then use the inverted image and use a 3D milling machine to cut the new pin block. This will avoid having to build up the pin block and the milling machine will mill away the troughs.
This should make the fit more accurate and the work required will be less. The result should also be excellent as scanning and milling are to the micron in required.


You have a 3D scanner? Let us know how this works out for you.


Semipro Tech
Re: Bluthner rebuild [Re: RK4211] #1980057
10/29/12 11:09 AM
10/29/12 11:09 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,263
Vancouver B. C. Canada
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Vancouver B. C. Canada
Originally Posted by RK4211

What is the oldest Delignit block you are aware of?



I have come across multiple laminated pin blocks in small Canadian made uprights from the sixties, just not the brand name Delignit.


Dan Silverwood
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"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."
Re: Bluthner rebuild [Re: RK4211] #1980226
10/29/12 05:58 PM
10/29/12 05:58 PM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,962
London
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David-G Offline
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London
Originally Posted by RK4211
Originally Posted by David-G
RK4211, I am very interested in old Bluthners, and I would be very grateful if you could post a picture or two of your piano. Particularly of the strings and plate.


I will take some photos tonight and try and post tomorrow.

That's very kind, I look forward to seeing them.

Re: Bluthner rebuild [Re: pianolive] #1980400
10/30/12 03:07 AM
10/30/12 03:07 AM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 9
JHB, South Africa
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RK4211 Offline OP
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JHB, South Africa
Hi,
The hammers in the piano are not correct. They have not been shaved as per the Bluthner method. The shanks have been sort of drilled at angles
I would then order them from Bluthner as they should have the correct angles and set up.

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