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#1977863 - 10/24/12 05:32 AM Bluthner rebuild  
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RK4211 Offline
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JHB, South Africa
Hi, I bought a Bluthner Grand 1902 model.
It has had some work done on it and not very well done.
I do have a few questions about the fixing of the paino.
1. Where was the original serial number printed on the harp?
2. What font was used?
3. Can I use Diligent Pin block material to repair the pin blcok

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#1977872 - 10/24/12 06:18 AM Re: Bluthner rebuild [Re: RK4211]  
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France
Hello, you better ask those directly at the Bluethner factory, they will answer you, after some time ...

Send them pics if you can.. Delignit certainly differs from the original pinblock and is less active, tonally speaking, but will it make such a difference on an anyway old piano ? the block could be repaired and not changed, possibly.



Professional of the profession.
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I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
#1977986 - 10/24/12 11:55 AM Re: Bluthner rebuild [Re: RK4211]  
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Supply Offline
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Originally Posted by RK4211
Hi, I bought a Bluthner Grand 1902 model.
It has had some work done on it and not very well done.
I do have a few questions about the fixing of the paino.
1. Where was the original serial number printed on the harp?
2. What font was used?
3. Can I use Diligent Pin block material to repair the pin blcok
1)If the number is not on the plate, it can usually be found on the back side of the fallboard, written in pencil.
2)Which font where, for what? I don't think you will find any modern computer fonts to exactly replicate anything on a 110 year old piano.
3) How exactly were you planning to "repair" the pin block with Delignit?

#1978113 - 10/24/12 04:44 PM Re: Bluthner rebuild [Re: RK4211]  
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The serial number was stamped in the SB decal and inside of the keybed in the right side of the belly rail.
Delignit planks are wonderful for any kind of pinblocks.
All the best,

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#1978198 - 10/24/12 08:20 PM Re: Bluthner rebuild [Re: RK4211]  
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Delignit is a quality material.
However, it is
- difficult to work
- hard on edge tools
- unforgiving in drilling tolerances for screws or tuning pins
- a questionable replacement material for use in a vintage piano

#1978415 - 10/25/12 09:43 AM Re: Bluthner rebuild [Re: Supply]  
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RK4211 Offline
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JHB, South Africa
Originally Posted by Supply
Originally Posted by RK4211
Hi, I bought a Bluthner Grand 1902 model.
It has had some work done on it and not very well done.
I do have a few questions about the fixing of the paino.
1. Where was the original serial number printed on the harp?
2. What font was used?
3. Can I use Diligent Pin block material to repair the pin blcok
1)If the number is not on the plate, it can usually be found on the back side of the fallboard, written in pencil.
2)Which font where, for what? I don't think you will find any modern computer fonts to exactly replicate anything on a 110 year old piano.
3) How exactly were you planning to "repair" the pin block with Delignit?


2) The Harp has been painted and the sound board repaired, so wanted to know what type of font was used to write the serial number on either the sound board or the harp.

3) I wanted to replace the old pin block with a new one made from Deligint.

#1978416 - 10/25/12 09:45 AM Re: Bluthner rebuild [Re: Supply]  
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RK4211 Offline
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JHB, South Africa
Originally Posted by Supply
Originally Posted by RK4211
Hi, I bought a Bluthner Grand 1902 model.
It has had some work done on it and not very well done.
I do have a few questions about the fixing of the paino.
1. Where was the original serial number printed on the harp?
2. What font was used?
3. Can I use Diligent Pin block material to repair the pin blcok
1)If the number is not on the plate, it can usually be found on the back side of the fallboard, written in pencil.
2)Which font where, for what? I don't think you will find any modern computer fonts to exactly replicate anything on a 110 year old piano.
3) How exactly were you planning to "repair" the pin block with Delignit?


I found the serial number on the board behind the action and on the lyre stand. There are also numerous pencil written serial numbers.

#1978417 - 10/25/12 09:49 AM Re: Bluthner rebuild [Re: Olek]  
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RK4211 Offline
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Hi,

I think the pin block is passed the useful stage.
A person who tried to tune the piano before I bought it has used vener shims inside the tuning pin holes and then tried to tune it. This has not worked.

The pin block has also sagged a little in the bass string area.

The action also needs a lot of setting up. I have replaced all the jack springs and the keys now have a more uniform feel to them now.

Am going to replace the hammers as the ones in there now are not all striaght or perpendicular to the strings.

#1978418 - 10/25/12 09:51 AM Re: Bluthner rebuild [Re: Supply]  
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RK4211 Offline
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JHB, South Africa
Originally Posted by Supply
Delignit is a quality material.
However, it is
- difficult to work
- hard on edge tools
- unforgiving in drilling tolerances for screws or tuning pins
- a questionable replacement material for use in a vintage piano


I am planning to scan the back of the harp where the pin block sits with a 3D scanner. Then take the scan to a 3D milling machine and get them to mill me the pin block in one piece from Deligint.

This should give me an exact fit of the Deligint into the harp.

All I need to do is make sure the down bearing is correct.


#1978506 - 10/25/12 02:17 PM Re: Bluthner rebuild [Re: RK4211]  
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I think Delignit is a bad pin block material and I agree with the points from Jurgen.
It would be much better to use this Canadian pin block material. I don't remember the name of it.

#1978522 - 10/25/12 02:37 PM Re: Bluthner rebuild [Re: pianolive]  
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Your words are a little ventured... Delignit is the favorite pinblock material for A. Reblitz, for example, as well as the most european/german brands, as Blüthner actually. Even Fazioli use it in the most of its grands.
Hope this help you.

Originally Posted by pianolive
I think Delignit is a bad pin block material and I agree with the points from Jurgen.
It would be much better to use this Canadian pin block material. I don't remember the name of it.

Last edited by lluiscl; 10/25/12 10:05 PM.
#1978534 - 10/25/12 03:18 PM Re: Bluthner rebuild [Re: pianolive]  
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Originally Posted by pianolive
I think Delignit is a bad pin block material and I agree with the points from Jurgen.
It would be much better to use this Canadian pin block material. I don't remember the name of it.


Bolduc


Wayne Walker
Walker's Piano Service
http://www.walkerpiano.ca/
#1978550 - 10/25/12 03:48 PM Re: Bluthner rebuild [Re: lluiscl]  
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Silverwood Pianos Offline
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Originally Posted by lluiscl
Your words are a little ventured... Delignit is the favorite pinblock material for A. Reblitz, for example, as well as the most european/german brands, as Blüthner actually. Even Fazioli use it in some of its grands.
Hope this help you.


I have a late model Blüthner here and it is not Delignit. I would not recommend this product for a vintage instrument.


Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
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"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."
#1978560 - 10/25/12 03:58 PM Re: Bluthner rebuild [Re: RK4211]  
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A pinblock serves one purpose, to hold the pins against the tension of the strings while allowing them to be tuned properly. If you are experienced with Delignit, it should be fine. If you are not, you should not be trying it out on a good piano. Are you aware that you need to build up the pinblock?


Semipro Tech
#1978564 - 10/25/12 04:05 PM Re: Bluthner rebuild [Re: BDB]  
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Originally Posted by BDB
A pinblock serves one purpose, to hold the pins against the tension of the strings while allowing them to be tuned properly. If you are experienced with Delignit, it should be fine. If you are not, you should not be trying it out on a good piano. Are you aware that you need to build up the pinblock?


a bit more than what stated here, in my opinion


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
#1978579 - 10/25/12 04:33 PM Re: Bluthner rebuild [Re: Silverwood Pianos]  
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May be it is before German unification?
I visited Blüthner factory 4 years ago and it was what I saw.
You can find this afirmation also by google...
Please, can you explain me why you (also) don't recommend it in vintage pianos? (I have recently use it in an 115 years old full restore Bechstein grand and I can say you that, for the moment, it's the most stable and easy to tune that I have never found).

[quote=Silverwood PianosI have a late model Blüthner here and it is not Delignit. I would not recommend this product for a vintage instrument.[/quote]

#1978649 - 10/25/12 08:00 PM Re: Bluthner rebuild [Re: RK4211]  
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The Reblitz book is well over thirty years old by now, and is no longer the gospel on many things. There were no real alternatives to Delignit way back then. We have come a long way....

You speak from your experience, lluiscl. That is a good thing. (There is not nearly enough of that here sometimes) Now I have to ask about that:
How many Delignit pinblocks have you installed?
Have you installed any other type of pin block?
Which ones, and how many?
How do the different block materials compare for you, in installation and in use?

Delignit was developed many decades ago. Back then almost no one was installing pin blocks in rebuilds. It was designed as an industrial material, and taken up by manufacturers of new pianos. Industrial production can easily be adjusted to account for the drawbacks that this material has - they have huge machines with carbide tools, precision jugs or CNC workstations etc.

The material is surely stable enough for any piano, and when done properly, the piano will tune quite nicely. More and more technicians are opting to use more authentic materials and parts in their rebuilding.

Proper insertion of a pinblock in a vintage German grand is quite tricky because of how the pinblocks are morticed into the sides of the case. The case is essentially built up around the pin block. Vintage Steinways are different - the block drops in from the top.

#1978673 - 10/25/12 09:53 PM Re: Bluthner rebuild [Re: Supply]  
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Jurgen. Reblitz also speak about hard maple or Falconwood pinblocks in his old book... Actually no only Blüthner or Fazioli if not Bechstein, Sauter, Grotrian, August Förster and (I think also) Bösendorfer use it. All top brands.
Less tolerance than Bolduc-hard maple ones? For sure, but beech was mainly the material used in the old european pinblocks, so rebuilding them with same (multilaminated) material seems to me not the worst acoustical solution.
I have heard also of rebuilders using it in Steinways ones!!
In my recent Bechstein in particular I didn't replace all the morticed one, if not (structure was fine) I reblock the full tuning pin areas with 4 Delignit planks, glued them with Western epoxy. Drilling it was not traumatic, but I inserted the tuning pins screwing down... (to avoid at least 15 hammer big hits x pin).
All the best,

Last edited by lluiscl; 10/25/12 10:04 PM.
#1978677 - 10/25/12 09:57 PM Re: Bluthner rebuild [Re: RK4211]  
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Pinblocks have no acoustic properties to speak of.


Semipro Tech
#1978683 - 10/25/12 10:17 PM Re: Bluthner rebuild [Re: RK4211]  
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There are a few great pin block stock materials available. I think it's really what the rebuilder is familiar and comfortable with.


"Imagine it in all its primatic colorings, its counterpart in our souls - our souls that are great pianos whose strings, of honey and of steel, the divisions of the rainbow set twanging, loosing on the air great novels of adventure!" - William Carlos Williams
#1978698 - 10/25/12 11:07 PM Re: Bluthner rebuild [Re: lluiscl]  
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Originally Posted by lluiscl
... Actually no only Blüthner or Fazioli if not Bechstein, Sauter, Grotrian, August Förster and (I think also) Bösendorfer use it. All top brands.
This is what I said - it is used in the industrial manufacturing of pianos. But Bösendorfer has never used Delignit, they use their own laminated maple blocks.

#1979179 - 10/27/12 04:30 AM Re: Bluthner rebuild [Re: RK4211]  
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Bluethner hammers :

I consider that the hammers sold by the factory are necessary if one want to keep the original tone.
They are all bored 90° on the shank, but sliced with an angle.

The only hammers that can be gang filed all along

I have compared Bluethner mounted with standard hammers, and with the good ones : the tone is really different.

(also they have a very good felt and pressing, voicing is very quickly done, a pleasure to work with (but provide them strings height and flange center height so you receive the good hammers for your instrument)

PS Pinblock is a part of the sound body on first grade grands (due to transmission of vibrations within the case and keybed, the differnce when delignit is used is obvious)

Then, Delignit is a good material also, for instance on a piano where the case is supposed to be inert and the iron plate is more active to colour the tone, the pinblock can be heavy and non resonant, but maple traditional blocks are always better (for pin tightness also I prefer them)

Last edited by Kamin; 10/27/12 04:34 AM.

Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
#1979223 - 10/27/12 09:25 AM Re: Bluthner rebuild [Re: RK4211]  
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I know that Estonia uses Delignit or Dehonit pinblocks in their current production. Not sure what brand is used, but Bluthner and August Forster also use multiple ply pinblocks.

I'm trying to wrap my head around the idea of pinblock material influencing the tonal outcome of a piano, but am doubtful that it makes any difference whatsoever. If it did I would have to believe that companies like Forster and Bluthner would use something else, or would design a more "proprietary" material.



Keyboardist & Composer, Piano Technician
www.jamescarney.net
http://jamescarneypianotuning.wordpress.com/
#1979253 - 10/27/12 10:59 AM Re: Bluthner rebuild [Re: wayne walker]  
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Yes, Bolduc, thanks Wayne. It is a great material. Very much like the Steinway blocks (Maybe Steinway even buy from there).

All what Jurgen has written in this matter here is definitely correct, and so there is no need to replicate.

#1979277 - 10/27/12 12:42 PM Re: Bluthner rebuild [Re: Olek]  
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Originally Posted by Kamin
Bluethner hammers :
I consider that the hammers sold by the factory are necessary if one want to keep the original tone.
Note that factories do not make the hammers, they buy them from hammer makers. When they re-sell them, it is at a profit margin that supply houses can only dream of. (ie. cheaper to buy elsewhere...)

#1979382 - 10/27/12 06:12 PM Re: Bluthner rebuild [Re: RK4211]  
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Wemll of course Jurgen , but some of them are not abusing, often for vertical pianos (and can sell you the heads glued on selected shanks)

For grand pianos they have you pay for the eventual boring and the thinning-shaping of tails. sure the cost is 1/3 more than when buying hammers frome Renner or Abel, often.

What I said when it comes to the grand hammers for Bluethner, is just that you cannot find them elsewhere, to my knowledge, and that the extra cost is worth due to the quality and respect of original design.
The same apply to Hambourg Steinway and there you really pay some extra (but the shape of the felt differs from what is availeable otherwise

Non bored or thinned heads when ordered at the factory are yet at a reasonable price, to me, (generally speaking, not for any brand, one have to ask)



Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
#1979424 - 10/27/12 07:46 PM Re: Bluthner rebuild [Re: RK4211]  
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RK4211, I am very interested in old Bluthners, and I would be very grateful if you could post a picture or two of your piano. Particularly of the strings and plate.

#1979579 - 10/28/12 07:34 AM Re: Bluthner rebuild [Re: Olek]  
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Twice I have ordered piano hammers from Bluthner, Leipzig and both times the hammers were sent directly from Abel with invoice from Abel.
After that, I order Bluthner hammers from Abel and the prices are the same.
Seems to me that Bluthner does not charge extra for customised piano hammers like some other manufacturers.

#1979595 - 10/28/12 09:17 AM Re: Bluthner rebuild [Re: RK4211]  
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Abel does not sell officially the hammers sliced as at the factory, that I asked.

You received the hammers with standard slicing, or Bluethner slicing ?

as the slicing is what determines hammer orientation it have to be done differently for each model; I am not even sure Abel have the correct setup to do so, the last I received where visibly sliced artisanally, with a few mistakes, not as something done on high tech machinery


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
#1979598 - 10/28/12 09:26 AM Re: Bluthner rebuild [Re: RK4211]  
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[Linked Image]

it is may be unseen on the pic , but all the wood moldings are straight 90° on the shank, no need to shape the tails gang filing style.

due to the slicing, the sides of the tails are also having their angles cut , but hammer traveling is easier than with the standard shape


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
#1979599 - 10/28/12 09:33 AM Re: Bluthner rebuild [Re: RK4211]  
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yes if I buy non bored heads at the factory, for Bluethner the price is normal. then I have to bore al hammers with 0 degres angle, our boring jigs are not well adapted to that kind of job, as they use the side of the head as a support generally, there the side angle will differ depending of the location of the hammer


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
#1979994 - 10/29/12 07:45 AM Re: Bluthner rebuild [Re: BDB]  
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RK4211 Offline
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Originally Posted by BDB
A pinblock serves one purpose, to hold the pins against the tension of the strings while allowing them to be tuned properly. If you are experienced with Delignit, it should be fine. If you are not, you should not be trying it out on a good piano. Are you aware that you need to build up the pinblock?


I want to scan in the frame and invert the image. I will then use the inverted image and use a 3D milling machine to cut the new pin block. This will avoid having to build up the pin block and the milling machine will mill away the troughs.
This should make the fit more accurate and the work required will be less. The result should also be excellent as scanning and milling are to the micron in required.

#1979997 - 10/29/12 07:51 AM Re: Bluthner rebuild [Re: Olek]  
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RK4211 Offline
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Originally Posted by Kamin
Bluethner hammers :

I consider that the hammers sold by the factory are necessary if one want to keep the original tone.
They are all bored 90° on the shank, but sliced with an angle.

The only hammers that can be gang filed all along

I have compared Bluethner mounted with standard hammers, and with the good ones : the tone is really different.

(also they have a very good felt and pressing, voicing is very quickly done, a pleasure to work with (but provide them strings height and flange center height so you receive the good hammers for your instrument)

PS Pinblock is a part of the sound body on first grade grands (due to transmission of vibrations within the case and keybed, the differnce when delignit is used is obvious)

Then, Delignit is a good material also, for instance on a piano where the case is supposed to be inert and the iron plate is more active to colour the tone, the pinblock can be heavy and non resonant, but maple traditional blocks are always better (for pin tightness also I prefer them)


So the hammers from Bluthner is what I will get. How do you go about ordering the hanners? Do Bluthner sell and ship international?

I am now in two minds about either the Deliginit or the Maple-Buldoc pin block.

The original Bluthner one looks to be three laminated sections of wood. A large thick layer, a thinner middle layer and then a medium thickness lower layer. This has lasted about 100 years.

What is the oldest Delignit block you are aware of?

#1979998 - 10/29/12 07:54 AM Re: Bluthner rebuild [Re: David-G]  
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RK4211  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 9
JHB, South Africa
Originally Posted by David-G
RK4211, I am very interested in old Bluthners, and I would be very grateful if you could post a picture or two of your piano. Particularly of the strings and plate.


I will take some photos tonight and try and post tomorrow.

#1980002 - 10/29/12 08:20 AM Re: Bluthner rebuild [Re: RK4211]  
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 332
pianolive Offline
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pianolive  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 332
Europe
You can order hammers directly from Bluthner.
Or you can send some samples to Abel and they will make them for you. Send them the first and last hammer with shanks from each section in the piano.

Go for the Buldoc pin block.

#1980054 - 10/29/12 11:59 AM Re: Bluthner rebuild [Re: RK4211]  
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 24,916
BDB Offline
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BDB  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 24,916
Oakland
Originally Posted by RK4211
Originally Posted by BDB
A pinblock serves one purpose, to hold the pins against the tension of the strings while allowing them to be tuned properly. If you are experienced with Delignit, it should be fine. If you are not, you should not be trying it out on a good piano. Are you aware that you need to build up the pinblock?


I want to scan in the frame and invert the image. I will then use the inverted image and use a 3D milling machine to cut the new pin block. This will avoid having to build up the pin block and the milling machine will mill away the troughs.
This should make the fit more accurate and the work required will be less. The result should also be excellent as scanning and milling are to the micron in required.


You have a 3D scanner? Let us know how this works out for you.


Semipro Tech
#1980057 - 10/29/12 12:09 PM Re: Bluthner rebuild [Re: RK4211]  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,263
Silverwood Pianos Offline
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Silverwood Pianos  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,263
Vancouver B. C. Canada
Originally Posted by RK4211

What is the oldest Delignit block you are aware of?



I have come across multiple laminated pin blocks in small Canadian made uprights from the sixties, just not the brand name Delignit.


Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."
#1980226 - 10/29/12 06:58 PM Re: Bluthner rebuild [Re: RK4211]  
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,576
David-G Offline
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David-G  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,576
London
Originally Posted by RK4211
Originally Posted by David-G
RK4211, I am very interested in old Bluthners, and I would be very grateful if you could post a picture or two of your piano. Particularly of the strings and plate.


I will take some photos tonight and try and post tomorrow.

That's very kind, I look forward to seeing them.

#1980400 - 10/30/12 04:07 AM Re: Bluthner rebuild [Re: pianolive]  
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 9
RK4211 Offline
Junior Member
RK4211  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 9
JHB, South Africa
Hi,
The hammers in the piano are not correct. They have not been shaved as per the Bluthner method. The shanks have been sort of drilled at angles
I would then order them from Bluthner as they should have the correct angles and set up.

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