Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Question about a problem with a Kawai K3 buyed a year ago

Hi to all, i am from Argentina, south america. I recently buyed a Kawai K3 new in february 2011.

I waited until the first tunning for 6 months in april of 2011 and i saw a problem with the repetition on the piano, doing trinos for example or repeating a note quickly doesn't sound or fails...

The other things in the piano are nice, the sound, the touch, etc, but it has these problem.
The technician of BReyer(the reseller oficially in Argentina of Kawai) told me that the piano needs to get softer using it a lot, or something like that, that i need to play a lot in order to fix these problem.

Two months ago the technician come again, and the problem still continue, but he told me now that it's a wet problem with the ambience, but i always have this problem playing, so WTF?

Another problem is that the Breyer company when i buyed the piano don't give me the chair of the piano, they told me that in the aduana(customs) not let it go inside the country, so they bring us the piano without their bench....

I want to talk with oficial kawai US in order to complain about all these problems i have, because i think they are treat me like a stupid...Anyone know a mail or something?

And why i am having this problem with trinos and repetition in same pieces? What i need to tell to the technician in order to fix my problem?

Thanks a lot sory my bad english.
The piano was made in 2010 in Indonesia(all parts of japan, but it was assembled in indonesia.

If the repetition is slow on some notes, you could ask the technician to check the jack pins if they are too tight.

Talking to Kawai, you can use this enquiry form at their customer support. Send them the same post you sent here to this board.

https://www.kawai.co.jp/worldwide/support/

Good one pianolive.

Nazanone can also contact Don Mannino(sp?) who is a rep for Kawai America I believe.

He goes by the name of KawaiDon here on the forum.

Buenos Aires is a high humidity location. It is no surprise to me that your piano (or any piano) would exhibit the problems you mention. While a technician can ease key bushings and do some re-pinning, your whole piano is suffering if you have it in high humidity. Strings can rust, the soundboard and tuning pin block can be damaged etc. Probably your best be would be to address (control) the humidity in the room with the piano. This can be done by a stand-alone de-humidifier and/or a "Piano Life Saver System".

Regarding the bench, I don't think this is a Kawai issue. It sounds like the dealer is telling you stories. A piano can be sold with or without a bench, but that needs to be made clear at the time of purchase. It could affect the price of the piano.

Nazanone:

I have had customers with exactly the same problems of impossible repetition with Kawai K3s. The fault is entirely due to the lack of a jack slap rail being included in the millemium action. There are work rounds to improve things, but it takes a really good technician to be able to do it.

I actually met up with a Kawai technician who was over here in the UK to discuss the issue, and was not at all impressed by his view that it was to be expected that repetition on an upright piano should be lacking, and that only good repetition can be obtained on a grand action.

The K3 is a great instrument that is sadly let down by the omission of a jack slap rail which would cost next to nothing to install at the point of manufacture.

I did manage to improve repetition on my customers K3s and I was paid for virtually a days work that it took to rectify, but Kawai could re-design the action to include a jack slap rail and it would then be pretty much faultless!

Ok, I have to ask. How exactly would a jack slap rail help repetition on a vertical piano?

Loren D:

This subject has been covered a couple of times already, but put simply, it is the means to accurately regulate the travel of the jack so that it can re-set without having to completely release the key .... i.e. a piano with a correctly regulated JSR will reliably repeat where as those that don't will continually be prone to jacks not being able to reset.

I don't see how that could be possible on an upright. With no repetition lever, the jack can't get back underneath the butt since the butt is resting on the jack. I don't see how the absence or presence of a jack stop rail can change that.

I can't help but wonder if the problem is merly not enough lost motion.... Meaning, the jack isn't able to get under the hammer butt at all..... Or, one of the problems..

Yep. Or a weak jack spring, tight jack center, etc. But jack stop rail or not, there's no way the jack is going to reset until it clears the butt, and that's at full rest.

I can assure you that the JSR has everything to do with good repetition on a decent upright piano, the trouble is that not many techs have the slightest clue as to what it does or how to set it up correctly.

Seeing as this topic has already been covered, I see little point in arguing once again with those who appear not wanting to learn a thing or two.

Best wishes - John

Also, regulating optimally the bottom of the key pressure so the backcheck wire does not spring so much will help.

I woud not say the BSR relates to repetition without letting the key go up totally , or only at fast speed of repetition, is not it ?

I went back and searched, and though this topic was covered, it was by no means resolved. I still maintain that without a spring to lift the butt and allow the jack to get back underneath it (a la grand repetition lever/spring), the JSR can do nothing for repetition.

And an edit: your condescending attitude toward techs who do not share your opinion or who challenge a premise is pretty annoying. Since we don't have a clue, why don't you enlighten us (who don't have a clue) instead of writing us off about "not wanting to learn a thing or two?"

In other words, explain why a JSR helps repetition.

Kamin:

I get the impression that many here assume that only grands are capable of rapid repetition, and that uprights require their keys to be let fully up in order to be able to repeat without trapping the jack. This is a total misconception!

An upright that is nicely regulated with a Jack Slap Rail, will be fully capable of repetition without the need for the key to be allowed to return fully. I totally agree that grand actions lend themselves to much better control, and providing the jack is not set too high and there is just enough "kick" there is a pretty constant certainty of repetition.

Over the years I've seen a definite trend by some manufacturers to omit JSRs from their upright action designs, where they deem it good enough to attach felt to the set-off rail. Maybe the "coin counters" consider the cost of including a JSR not justified because it didn't make any improvement ... where as the true situation is that when it has been included in the design, it hasn't been set up correctly.

Hardly any new upright pianos that I come across with JSRs fitted are set up correctly, and fail miserably on issues of repetition - within a couple of minutes, the time taken to adjust each section ... the issues of repeating and trapping jacks can be solved.

The OPs instrument is typical of the shortsightedness of modern manufactures who, for the sake of making tiny savings, are spoiling an otherwise superb product.

The very best examples of good repetition on uprights were those that instead of JSRs, had an additional repetition spring on the jack hooked into a loop cord protruding through a hole in the top part of the jack. This was quite common on quality pianos such as Bechsteins, and their repetition was virtually as good as a grand. Sadly this system (being so fiddly and time consuming) seems no longer in vogue. However, the examples of instruments that have JSRs fitted are infinitely superior to those not having one .... as long as they have been set up correctly, otherwise they serve no useful purpose at all.

Best wishes - John

Johnkie,
I think I understand this reluctance to adjust the jack stop rail close to the jacks.

Whereas we have a relatively narrow range of humidity swings, in most parts of the USA, they have an enormous range of humidity variation.

I well remember opening the door of an air-conditioned house on the eastern seaboard of Virginia after spending a few hours indoors. It was like opening an oven door after something had been roasting in there at 300 for 4 hours. They have climate and humidity, we get weather and damp! Many months of the year have constant high humidity coupled with extreme high temperatures. The opposite season has extreme cold counteracted by the dryness of forced hot air central heating.

They typically have a seasonal pitch variation range 3-4 times greater than ours. This extreme range of humidity also affects the behaviour of the action.

I worked on the other side of the pond and, for a time in the '70's, one Japanese manufacturer did send uprights adjusted as you describe. They were fine when taken out of the hermetically sealed packaging but after a few days in some seasons, the hammers began to trap during playing and the safest permanent cure was to back off the jackstop rail.

Interestingly, there is almost no history of the jackstop rail in American built uprights. Most older American uprights don't have a jackstop rail at all. Instead, there is a short downward projection of the catcher (buttstop) with a round hole in it for the tape to pass through and a small piece of felt attached to the end to restrict the otherwise unrestricted movement of the jack away from the butt. I have never seen this arrangement on a European piano. There are thousands if not millions of pianos of this design that still form the backbone of many an American tuners workload. a testament to how solidly they were built.

I have done what you are describing and it does work well. Allowance can be made for seasonal variations. There is advantage to adjusting them at least closer to the jacks than they are commonly found. Maybe one day we will find individual adjusters on them.

The point I'm making is this. In my example, I play a note on a vertical piano so the hammer checks, and I continue to hold the note down. At this point, the key is depressed, the whippen is raised, the hammer is checked, and the jack is tripped.

From this point, I begin releasing the key. The jack will not get back under the butt until the hammer is completely at rest (provided there is sufficient lost motion to allow it).

How does a JSR change that dynamic?

Quite so, Loren, quite so. You are correct for the circumstances you describe but that is but one of a myriad of circumstances the action finds itself in at any moment during actual playing when the hammer is in motion and rapid repetition is demanded, as was pointed out in a former thread.

The situation you describe does not have to be static. By subtle changes in the amount of after touch, back check distance and possibly catching angle if necessary, then, and only then, a refinement of the jackstop clearance followed by a few other things, a dynamism can be introduced that can be felt even on a fully pressed key by a sensitive pianist whose life is intertwined with their piano in a way others can not imagine. I can feel it for myself by infinitessimally releasing the pressure on the key or by holding the key down with absolute minimum pressure. That's how I test what I'm doing and, at its most physical level, what a sensitive pianist is doing. I wouldn't do this with a piano that is allowed to suffer the huge humidity swings described in my last posting (which is a form of neglect at this level of care). It's not everyday stuff and I don't see many uprights anymore. It's merely a refinement of what is already there, staring me in the face.

Subtleties like this have been called piano voodoo by people who understand neither the piano nor voodoo. An older term for this type of stuff was 'possibility thinking' and it can get fascinating.

Than you for prompting this partial explanation.

I think this thread is going a bit off topic (understatement). The piano is located in Buenos Aires, a city that has very hot and humid summers. The humidity right now is over 90%. That should be a starting point.

You're right, Jurgen I let myself get suckered in. Sorry, all.

Hey thanks to all for the answers, the technician will come again the next week i think, so i'll keep us posted.