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#1974744 - 10/17/12 05:45 PM How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better?  
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Steve Cohen Offline
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I think that is the more important topic.


Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.
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#1974746 - 10/17/12 05:47 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]  
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Stop bickering and name calling. smile


Becca
Began: 01-12-11
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Roland RD300NX
1947 Gulbranson spinet piano
#1974750 - 10/17/12 05:51 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: BeccaBb]  
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Silverwood Pianos Offline
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Originally Posted by BeccaBb
Stop bickering and name calling. smile


Exactly: address the issue not the poster. As Ken Knapp astutely observes and has stated previously problems always begin when members address what others are doing rather than what they are posting for content.

Just because some other member does not agree with your posting does not mean they are a “something”

Long time member BDB;

Using labels exhibits laxity of thought. It is an ad hominem argument, no better than name-calling, and lacks substance.


Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."
#1974796 - 10/17/12 06:42 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]  
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How to make PW advice better, well, don't listen to no-nothings like me! LOL


Marriage is like a card game, you start with two hearts and a diamond, later you wish you had a club and a spade!
Yamaha G7 Yamaha CVP75 digital, Allen 3500 theater organ
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#1975283 - 10/18/12 04:18 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]  
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The quality of advice given is directly related to any poster's level of expertise. Posters tend to come and go. They get the information that they think that they need and move on. Genuine information runs the gamut. Some technical info given as gospel, has been gleaned from a very narrow frame of reference, some over a very long period of time. A snapshot of opinions today will vary from a similar query a few years ago or a few years forward and some info is just better than other info. I think it would benefit those making queries if those replying would also include their backround, especially if they are not a business per se. In this way, an opinion could be weighted according to the level of experience. As an example, some have proffered that asian pianos over 25 years of age are due for a rebuild, the tuning pins aren't tight and the bass strings are dead. My daughter as an example tried to sell her Kawai upright circa. 1970. When folks called her about it and found that it was made in 1970, they wouldn't even come out and try it because they said that on Piano World they heard that essentially the life of the piano was over.Years later she still has it, it's still in tune, the bass strings aren't dead and she hasn't been able to sell it...because of a pile of balderdash heard on this website. Never mind that Dad's hobby is pianos and it has a new set of hammers and it is in excellent regulation.

Just my two cents!

#1975289 - 10/18/12 04:29 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]  
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I don't believe you should share your wisdom/advice unless some one is asking for it. I figure I always have something to learn so I will accept and reject advice as needed.

rada

#1975362 - 10/18/12 07:01 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]  
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Amaruk Offline
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I think it is great as it is now... This forum rocks! smile


My piano channel on YouTube: Link
#1975578 - 10/19/12 08:38 AM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]  
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backto_study_piano Offline
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The presence of industry spies is a limiting factor - particularly when they can not agree with a realistic comment about their product.

As a result of bullying by one global company representative, there is one product which I won't make comment on now, despite the poor presentation and preparation of the samples provided. That then skews opinion in favour of that company.


Alan from Queensland, Australia (and Clara - my Grotrian Concert & Allen Organ (CF-15)).
#1975593 - 10/19/12 09:28 AM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: backto_study_piano]  
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Originally Posted by backto_study_piano
The presence of industry spies is a limiting factor - particularly when they can not (handle a) comment about their product.

As a result of bullying by one global company representative, there is one product which I won't make comment on now, despite the poor presentation and preparation of the samples provided.


Agreed. I walked away from Kawai due to one representative here just as I was about to slap down $35K+ on one of their grands. Went with a famous German maker instead and am happier on all fronts.

If the representatives would stop pushing propaganda and vitriol, it would help.
I like that the techs voice their experiences, opinions, and recommendations, but when the sniping begins, it is tedious. The threads bog down in lengthy off-topic blather.
Stop attacking opinion as if it is fact. Just frame it properly as opinion.

MORE SOUNDS. This is a PIANO forum and almost no one posts sounds. "I've got an amazing sounding grand... here's a picture." Huh? "These Abel hammers sound incredible. (end of post)" Wha? I don't care if you mangle Chopsticks trying to show off the sound, and scr@w the critics, I'd like to hear the range of pianos and hammers and wires and everything. I suspect most would love this.

I wish there was more info about restoration and parts. More photos. It's hard to get a lot of detail about actions and hammers and so forth.


Currently working on/memorizing...
"It's You" from Robotech
"He's A Pirate"
"Crazy Bone Rag"
"What The World Needs Now"
#1975632 - 10/19/12 10:38 AM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]  
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The problem with posting recordings with the intent of using them to evaluate sound is that quality of the recordings and the quality of the speakers being used by the listener both have an effect on what one hears. I think the quality of the recording has the much bigger effect.

I also think the quality of the performer affects the sound somewhat, at least to the extent it can be hard to separate the sound from the skill of the performer.

If I'm not mistaken Larry Fine is in the process of getting recordings of different pianos posted but I don't know exactly where.

As far as the quality of advice goes, I think it is really impossible to improve on that on an internet forum. I wonder if there internet forums dealing with things other than pianos that have some way that they try to do this? The person reading the thread has to try as best as they can to decide on how knowledgeable and trustworthy the poster is and whether the poster has any agenda that would affect their advice. I have yet to read a single dealer post that says even the tiniest negative thing about a piano they sell. And most piano owners rave about their own pianos.

It would be fun if, just for a few days, all posters had to take a truth serum and say exactly what they were really thinking.


Last edited by pianoloverus; 10/19/12 10:42 AM.
#1975652 - 10/19/12 11:24 AM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]  
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Rickster Offline
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Originally Posted by Pianoloverus
As far as the quality of advice goes, I think it is really impossible to improve on that on an internet forum. I wonder if there internet forums dealing with things other than pianos that have some way that they try to do this? The person reading the thread has to try as best as they can to decide on how knowledgeable and trustworthy the poster is and whether the poster has any agenda that would affect their advice. I have yet to read a single dealer post that says even the tiniest negative thing about a piano they sell. And most piano owners rave about their own pianos.

Pianoloverus, I agree you here… what you said makes a lot of sense to me.

On the other hand, Steve has a good point… I personally think anything that we have some control over, to any extent, can be improved in some way. I’m an advocate of Dr. Edward Deming’s philosophy of continuous improvement.

Also, keep in mind that the advice given here is free… and, at times, is worth about what it costs. Our system of checks and balances here are the many pros and experts that can counter any outright bad advice. (And some have countered my bad advice.) smile

With that said, I think any improvements in the advice given here on the Piano World forums would have to start with improvements from our members. As we experience our own self-improvement and grow, and mature, and get better at what we do, the improvements in the advice we give here will get better.

I, for one, know that I have only scratched the surface when it comes to knowledge about pianos and all things related. I think as I learn more I’ll be able to give better advice to others. And, even if my advice is not all that good, I can be a good motivator and encourager! Surely that counts for something. smile

Rick



Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
#1975678 - 10/19/12 12:10 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: pianoloverus]  
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
The problem with posting recordings with the intent of using them to evaluate sound is that quality of the recordings and the quality of the speakers being used by the listener both have an effect on what one hears. I think the quality of the recording has the much bigger effect.


The quality and settings of the sound card in the computer used to hear the recording also has a direct effect on what one hears.

Originally Posted by pianoloverus

It would be fun if, just for a few days, all posters had to take a truth serum and say exactly what they were really thinking.



I must have taken a dose some years ago.


Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
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http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."
#1975683 - 10/19/12 12:18 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Rusty Fortysome]  
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Originally Posted by Rusty Fortysome

I wish there was more info about restoration and parts. More photos. It's hard to get a lot of detail about actions and hammers and so forth.



Plenty of materials on my web site photo gallery along with 50 postings to my blog about a variety of the topics mentioned.

Whoops not that I am promoting myself at all Rickster; just finding solutions for one member’s dilemma.

Isaac Oleg in Vitry, France ( Kamin on the list) has a lot of photos albums available for viewing also.

There are other members of the tech forum who provide photo sets and blogs of this type of content.


Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."
#1975717 - 10/19/12 01:09 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]  
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I believe that this forum exists to inform people about pianos, to promote the piano as a musical instrument and to encourage all piano players at every level of accomplishment.

Personally, my limited understanding and knowledge of pianos has been helped tremendously by my modest involvement in Pianoworld.

I find that the most credible, impartial responses about technical issues and problems with pianos come from the people who really know what they are talking about, the professional tuners and technicians.

Of course, we all have opinions about pianos, but we need to differentiate between what is fact and what is opinion. Again, the technical people on the forum seem to be better at this.

Negativity, especially in personal attacks and comments are a turn-off and moderators need to be vigilant.

It is a great forum and offers a wealth of information and lively discourse about pianos.

Robert.

#1975735 - 10/19/12 01:54 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]  
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Rickster Offline
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Originally Posted by Silverwood Pianos
Whoops not that I am promoting myself at all Rickster; just finding solutions for one member’s dilemma.

Don't know that I've ever thought you were promoting youself here, Dan. I've always thought you were here to help in anyway you can. smile

It is folks like you, Robert 45, Del Fandrich, Supply (Jurgen Goering), Jerry Groot, Steven Cohen, Rich Galassini, and so many others that I have not named (but they know who they are), that make this forum such a wonderful place to learn about pianos (and lots of other things smile ).

By the way, what happened to PianoBroker (Tony Hamm?); We haven't heard from him in a long time.

Rick


Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
#1975773 - 10/19/12 02:52 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]  
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Steve Cohen Offline
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One idea would be to some how allow newbies to know which posters have broad and deep experience in the industry. Maybe a designation of "certified advisor".



Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.
#1975797 - 10/19/12 03:36 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]  
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Carey Offline
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Originally Posted by Steve Cohen
One idea would be to some how allow newbies to know which posters have broad and deep experience in the industry. Maybe a designation of "certified advisor".


And we should also add the category - "unbiased advisor" grin


Mason and Hamlin BB - 91640
Kawai CA-65
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo
#1975904 - 10/19/12 07:32 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]  
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Originally Posted by Steve Cohen
One idea would be to some how allow newbies to know which posters have broad and deep experience in the industry. Maybe a designation of "certified advisor".


How would that work?


David M. Boothe, CAS
#1975907 - 10/19/12 07:44 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: ventil]  
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Carey Offline
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Originally Posted by ventil
Originally Posted by Steve Cohen
One idea would be to some how allow newbies to know which posters have broad and deep experience in the industry. Maybe a designation of "certified advisor".


How would that work?


About the same way as "unbiased advisor" ha


Mason and Hamlin BB - 91640
Kawai CA-65
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo
#1975937 - 10/19/12 08:28 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]  
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Awwwww shucks, thanks Rick! That was mighty nice of you to say!

All in all, honesty is always a good policy no matter what, where, or when... I can't even begin to count the amount of dishonest people that I know, have met, continue to meet and seem to encounter pretty much everywhere I go! It seems that dishonesty, tends to be more prevalent than honesty in many instances. It's a "me me me" world and the other person doesn't count world. It is the way many people in today's society was raised. If, that way of thinking was reversed and people looked out for others, put others first and themselves second, did more for others, even volunteered somewhere, well, one person can make a difference. I know... That would make a big difference and would make everything, everywhere, including PW a better place.


Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.
#1975939 - 10/19/12 08:30 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]  
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Originally Posted by Steve Cohen
One idea would be to some how allow newbies to know which posters have broad and deep experience in the industry. Maybe a designation of "certified advisor".



Your thread title reads: How can we make the advice on Piano World better? The "we" would seem to imply a collective effort to focus more closely on the advice asked for and not go beyond that by getting into subjective preferences and biases.

Your suggestion does not make the advice given here "better". It simply makes some of the advice given here appear to be 'better' than the rest.

Those who feel their advice should be given primacy over others' due to their credentials can get into those credentials in their tags by stating present and past affiliations, as well as years of experience in the piano biz. Introducing an arbitrary standard of certification just opens another can of worms.

Do those with many brand affiliations over the years post objectively to their total experience or feel a prevailing loyalty to their current suppliers (the hand that feeds)? In your case, I would bet on objectivity overruling current affiliations, but I would not bet on that in general, and I would only bet on that in your case due to reading many of your posts oover the last few years, not due to your many years of experience in the biz and your many affiliations. In other words, the actual post validates the résumé, not the other way around.



Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier
#1975969 - 10/19/12 09:26 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]  
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People forget that pianos and music making in general are a subject that never will or *can* be agreed upon.

Sound including the 'perception of sound', have never been a matter of 'agreement' but personal 'feel'

'Feel' again, is based on many other personal aspects including what one is personally familiar with or sometimes "not".

A Saab may be a better car than a Honda, but when not familiar with them both, the discussion becomes quickly meaningless.

By same token without having the chance to personally experience different pianos either as player or discerning listener, the whole subject remains ...er..talk.

Claiming to be an expert when not familiar with many of the various makes/models being discussed here or not being a player oneself, doesn't exactly do the trick either.

Agreeing can be beautiful - disagreeing sometimes better.

Norbert smile

Last edited by Norbert; 10/20/12 12:50 PM.

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#1976309 - 10/20/12 02:27 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]  
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If I missed someone already saying this, I apologize.

Opinions should be expresses as such, not as fact. Far to many opinions are expressed as facts. No amount of existential cleverness or wordy math topics changes the simple fact that, unless you have personally done the significant testing and/or research, it is in fact, just an opinion.

If you are repeating something you read or heard, then present the proper citations, remove yourself as the "expert" and defer to the source you speak from.

We have people here expressing their "facts"on such things as sound boards who have never installed one.

Others present hearsay on manufacturers they heard from an "industry" friend, as fact, rather than the hearsay it is.

Separate fact from opinion and identify sources.


"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."
Mark Twain

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#1976731 - 10/21/12 01:05 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]  
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One thing we can all strive to do better is try and stay on topic. I've sometimes wondered what thread would get the award for longest "on -topic" responses.


















#1976766 - 10/21/12 03:08 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Rickster]  
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Originally Posted by Rickster

On the other hand, Steve has a good point…


Piano. Sound. It is just that simple.

Making an argument about the quality of recording ignores that most listeners here can cut through and excuse recording quality and attempt to understand what is heard due to how it sounds through misplaced mics and lacking speakers.

Insecurity on the part of the critic above would have a logical conclusion that there shouldn't ever be musical recordings because they don't match the experience in the moment of performance. All recordings are inherently inferior, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't attempt to display what is being described.

Imagine being on an illustration forum where they only write about how awesome the pictures are.


Currently working on/memorizing...
"It's You" from Robotech
"He's A Pirate"
"Crazy Bone Rag"
"What The World Needs Now"
#1976772 - 10/21/12 03:25 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Rusty Fortysome]  
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Originally Posted by Rusty Fortysome


Piano. Sound. It is just that simple.

Making an argument about the quality of recording ignores that most listeners here can cut through and excuse recording quality and attempt to understand what is heard due to how it sounds through misplaced mics and lacking speakers.
I doubt even a recording engineer could do that. I'm sure most average PW reader can't.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 10/21/12 03:25 PM.
#1976791 - 10/21/12 04:45 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]  
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Dave Horne Online content
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How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better?

How 'bout requiring posters to use their own name and a real e-mail address?



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#1976879 - 10/21/12 08:54 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Dave Horne]  
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rlinkt Offline
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rlinkt  Offline
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Originally Posted by Dave Horne
[i]
How 'bout requiring posters to use their own name and a real e-mail address?


That would be a social network -- a fundamentally different beast from a forum like this. On the other hand, the identities of quite a few of the experts here are no secret.

#1976980 - 10/22/12 04:41 AM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]  
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Dave Horne  Online Content
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I've found when there's accountability there's less nonsense.



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#1977044 - 10/22/12 11:00 AM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]  
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