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Romantic music is very much charged with central and eastern sensibility, so many composers coming from the Austro-Hungarian empire, from Poland. When you hear music coming from these countries you can have a hard time getting a handle on the rhythmic sense. Even a waltz seems kind of crazy, if you're accustomed to conceiving it in a smooth ONE-two-three meter, Laurence Welk style.

Music in these regions can also seem out of tune to a foreigner.

Rubato is fundamentally, in my view, an application of a rhythmic sensibility that isn't written in the score and cannot be written in the score. The way to begin to be able to use rubato is to gain a familiarity with the music and the culture of a country in this region of Europe, to get to know something of the language and the way of singing.

LadyChen, you are in very good company here with the counting!

We have been discussing the difficulties and complexities of imparting the idea of rubato to a single student, and having her/him "get it". Immagine, if you will, getting the full orchestra to feel a "common rubato", as a single person might. There is not a conductor in the world who does not COUNT THROUGH these things at rehearsal, at least until the interpretation of the work is familiar to most of the players.

Ed

Chris,
You have brought this up twice now, and I could not agree more. Whether it is building chords, playing rubato, or most anything else, I have always believed that one must know how to do it "right" first, so that one can then "do it wrong" correctly.

Ed

Would anyone say that the challenge in rubato is to use time expressively in a free manner while not losing underlying pulse, and in a way that fits rather than ending up clownish? With the idea of underlying pulse there is probably the idea of knowing how to play in strict time, and knowing how to count.

I agree, and would rather see/hear someone fail to use ANY rubato rather than lose the pulse. Losing the pulse seems to be a common problem.

There is another category that I call microtime. It is not rubato per se, as the pulse is relatively constant, but it requires the player to either advance or lag behind every beat by a specific amount unique to the genre. Thank of a jazz bass playing slightly behind in some styles, or being required to lead in others.

What is taken must be given back...

Keystring nailed it. There is a difference between "rubato" and "playing out of time" and they should not be confused. A fine musician MUST have a good sense of time while playing rubato in order to be able to give back what has taken. In other words the musician should be able to play rubato to a metronome and still end up on the right beat by the end of the piece. "Playing out of time" does not require this skill.

As far as the interpreting of pieces, I always say that music is a language. Wanna learn french? Go to France! I find it unfair that a child should be expected to interpret a piece using only the markings on the page, without that foundational language experience in a native-tongue fashion. Go to concerts, get recordings, youtube! And of course, demonstration. Put on the metronome and demonstrate a rubato version of Happy Birthday.

Same here. I'd be glad to have students who can count accurately. Rubato is not to disguise weakness in counting.

Except for KeyString, you folks are steering clear of the second, potentially more interesting part, of Bluoh's oroginal question:

Any particular reason?

I'm a beginner and this is how I learn to make music (unless it's beyond me in level): I read over the score and circle all the dynamics. I look at the time signature. I begin to learn the notes (two hands for easy, hs for hard.) Once I get the notes down, I begin to play them with counting. Once I get the rhythm down, I begin to add in dynamics. Once I have that all in place I add it all together. Once it sounds like actual music I MIGHT listen to the song elsewhere, but usually do not.

I honestly can't imagine learning pieces by listening or watching them first. I was really surprised to read a question implying that others do not do this!

There is a problem with that question, Ed, and also the answer you've give so far, if it is to be seen as "the" answer. The problem is that teaching is a process where something is developed over a long period of several years, and teachers may come from opposite sides to meet at the same destination. Any individual teacher may also make different choices for different students. We'll leave out poor teachers, in this.

Take these two opposites: the ability to play timing and note values and meter with relative accuracy - the freedom of feeling the music, being creative with time for expressive purposes. You must be able to maintain the pulse even with rubato, and you have both elements occurring in music. Some teachers may start with freedom, and bring in the accuracy later. Some may start with accuracy, and bring in the freedom later. Many may toggle both ends of it. Any attempt to say that one particular approach is the right one is misguided.

The same goes for anything else. I am a creative, self-directed person, and have been so from earliest childhood. But there are times when imitation has served me well. Sometimes imitation can be a step in getting something into your body which then goes toward your senses, and ultimately understanding. Sometimes the understanding will lead musical choices, which then translate directly into playing. Either angle may be appropriate in various circumstances.

I think that what you are objecting to, Ed, is this idea of listening to a CD in order to find out "how it goes", and then copying that CD. In general I don't feel comfortable with that idea either.

Other elements include gaining an understanding of music. What is the general mindset of the Baroque period or the Romantic period? If a piece is based on "dance music" and they actually danced to it during that period, what type of rhythm do the dancers need, and how did they move at that time? Will the student learn this theoretically, maybe watch such dancers (easy with the Internet), and then try to bring that pulse into his playing? Or does his teacher first model the rhythm, to be copied by rote, and bring in the understanding afterward after a few pieces have been played?

One elephant in the room involves competitions or exams, and "what judges like to see". This may restrict the creativity and imagination of both the teacher and the student. Here you may get into imitation, looking at performances, not for ideas, but as models of "what is acceptable".

I don't think that this is a simple thing, with simple answers.

I think the second part of the question could almost be it's own thread -- it's a very big question and goes way beyond rubato.

The part about question b that makes me really think is the word "beginner". Take that out and I feel I could give a confident answer, but the beginner part throws me off. We have different shapes and sizes of beginners too, which complicates this further.

I'm trying to think about how much interpretation I teach my beginners, and it's making me realize that I need to do more. I probably throw too much of my effort behind getting them READING instead of making MUSIC.

My feeling is that yes, a beginner can interpret a piece on their own, but they need to be given the tools to do so first. They also need to be given the encouragement necessary to build enough confidence to try doing their own thing with a piece. Plus they need the technique to bring the interpretation out of their head and onto the keys.

A nice beginning interpretation activity is to hand a student a blank score (blank as in nothing but the notes) and have them add their own markings. At this level, it can be simply an exercise in creativity -- they can add whatever markings they want without worrying about being stylistically appropriate. And then the next part of the exercise, obviously, is playing the piece and following their own markings.

The follow-up to this first activity could be listening to the teacher play the same blank score used above, and have the student mark up the score to reflect how the teacher plays.

I think both these activities are important for teaching a student about interpretation. So I guess that means my answer to the question, is Yes, it's possible, and a good skill to have, but I also think learning from other musician's interpretations is valuable as well.

That is precisely what makes it the more intriguing part of the query.

I think I wrote more than that one line, and in this case that "more" probably matters.

Milano, 7 Aprile 1924

Dear Giacomo,

I would like to start by thanking you for sending along the score to that new opera - the one set in China. I had to tip the delivery boy a few extra lire because it was so heavy and cumbersome. As usual, your manuscript is a delight to behold! Even the corrections have a certain << je ne sais quoi >> that is your trademark. Over the last few evenings, I have read through the Adami and Simoni libretto. (I didn’t realize those two were ever in China!) Anyway, I doubt that our heavily-romanced language can adequately express those complex Oriental sentiments. But, that really is not my “department”, is it? (Ha, ha)

I have also been looking carefully at the notes on the staves - so many, many notes - and so many instruments! Page after page after page, with different instruments and voices entering here and there. I also noticed several - uh, actually countless - key changes and stuff. And, even though I asked you not to, once again the violincelli in the tenor clef! You have it all very neat, and well organized, of course.

This brings us to sort of an awkward moment, Giac. I was wondering if, in the next few days, you might stop over, and kind of tell me how this goes. I mean, you wouldn’t have to play it ALL on my piano - just some of the harder parts to get me started. Oh, and I am hoping you could sing for me at least the tenor and the soprano solos. Again, not every single measure (there are so many of them!), but just the main themes, and just until I learn them.

Once I start to learn most of it, I’ll see if we can get La Scala for the debut.

Oh, and I am certain I can still trust you to keep these little “coaching” sessions just between us, the same as when we worked on that Japanese Butterfly thing.

Your friend with kind regards,
Arturo

Yikes! Talk about playing with fire. No no no no no!!!

You can't play with rubato until you can play the entire piece precisely with the metronome. On the scale of grossly over-rubato to strictly in time, I'd err on the side of strictly in time. Even for Chopin. In fact, Chopin showed tremendous restraint as a performer and he disdained over-rubato.

It's easy to fool untrained ears with "expressive" rubato (plus ultra-choreographed movements to match). Rubato cannot be a substitute for lack of technique and rhythmic accuracy.

I'm going to assume "beginner" in this case has had lessons for one to two years, and is somewhere in book 3 or 4 of method books. Your ideas are very good.

I ask my students to notice patterns first. Imitation, repetition, sequence, and motive give clue to phrasing. Once we identify all the phrases, we mark up the "climax" of each phrase by feeling or hearing. This will give a general clue about whether to move forward in time or relax/slow down. The more advanced students will apply theory (harmonic analysis) to justify their rubato choices.

In the process of studying the music in-depth, the student gains the ability to form his/her own opinion on how the piece should sound. However, I seriously doubt the beginner-beginners (i.e., kids in Preparatory of Book 1 of a method book) can do this on their own.

I agree 100%, as did Abby Whiteside and Carmine Caruso.

I go even further. I think that playing in strict time, as slow as necessary, enhances the learning process. One should not detach from time even when working out a difficulty.

There are many who disagree, including the rather vehement N who's no longer with us. And a lot of them get good results. So there seem to be other approaches that work.

Va bene, má ~ acceto la responsabilità – No! Ben ricorda che successo al’ultima volta . . .

As you wish, Giaco, but ~ I can not be responsible for how this comes out. Remember what happened last time . . .

At least stop over, and review with me about that stupid C-clef thing. I got spoiled because Giuseppe used to pencil-in the names of the notes into his score for me. That way, when we are rehearsing, I don’t have to stop and say, ”Violas, I want you to emphasize that -- well -- you know -- that note -- in measure 497 -- the one that has the -- the sharp in front of it.
I lose a lot of credibility with the players that way . . . . .

I am taking “steps” to secure La Scala for the premier.
Art

I am glad you found it amusing, and have joined in the "conversation". It is fun to project where certain learning deficiencies might lead.

If this is still about teaching rubato, can you link this flight of fantasy to the issue of teaching rubato? I'm probably being dense, but I'm not seeing the connection. You have two hypothetical people, neither of whom is a student or teacher. How does this come together for the topic at hand?