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#2303482 - 07/17/14 06:22 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]  
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Chris Leslie Offline
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Canberra, ACT, Australia
Johnkie, what do you mean when you say that you don't have a way with writing? Your descriptions are beautiful and seemed to describe just how I feel when using a lever.


Chris Leslie ARPT
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au
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#2303560 - 07/18/14 12:34 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Grandpianoman]  
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Mark Cerisano Offline
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Mark Cerisano  Offline
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Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted by Grandpianoman
Johnkie,

Thanks for your explanation, very informative.

Question...is it true that there is a slight amount of flagpolling in using a tuning lever regardless whether you want flagpolling or not when turning the lever to move the pin, or a very slight flagpolling just "wiggling" it as you say?



Yes. Unless you are using a T-lever, or Levitan's C-lever.

The reason: The applied force to the pin is a certain distance away and above the pin. Turning a pin = turning moment (force x distance from pin) plus bending moment (force x distance above pin)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moment_(physics)


Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
#2303742 - 07/18/14 02:41 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]  
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Grandpianoman Offline
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Grandpianoman  Offline
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Portland, Oregon
Johnkie, Mark,

Thanks....this makes sense and is most likely the reason why I am getting the best stability on my pianos since I started tuning back in 2004.....I am using Dan's C Lever. On the grands I have tuned so far, my 2 and a friends, stability is great, speed has improved as I become more familiar with manipulating the lever, zeroing in on unisons is excellent, and I can sit through the whole tuning. I wish I had this lever back in 2004!


#2303850 - 07/18/14 09:46 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]  
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Mark Cerisano Offline
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Mark Cerisano  Offline
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Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Are you doing any intentional bending?


Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
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#2303951 - 07/19/14 07:59 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Mark Cerisano]  
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Olek Offline
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France
Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT
Originally Posted by Grandpianoman
Johnkie,

Thanks for your explanation, very informative.

Question...is it true that there is a slight amount of flagpolling in using a tuning lever regardless whether you want flagpolling or not when turning the lever to move the pin, or a very slight flagpolling just "wiggling" it as you say?



Yes. Unless you are using a T-lever, or Levitan's C-lever.

The reason: The applied force to the pin is a certain distance away and above the pin. Turning a pin = turning moment (force x distance from pin) plus bending moment (force x distance above pin)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moment_(physics)


Yes Mark, physics is admirable, but no one consider that the pin is not on his own, but retained by a 700N force that the tuner can use as a support to master bending. It does not avoid it but make an inflexion point That will lay the pin in the block before bending is released. The ratio is similar for pin to pin, we only have to take it in account.


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
#2303956 - 07/19/14 08:48 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: MU51C JP]  
Joined: Jun 2011
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Maximillyan Offline
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Maximillyan  Offline
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KZ
Originally Posted by Johnkie
Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT
Left hand 9 to 12 on upright.

Induces a positive NSL tension that must be reversed when done tuning.

Untwisting and unbending (putting to bed as Isaac says) can do that, but if the NSL is short, it could be too much and NSL tension goes too much below speaking length tension, and note goes flat.

This is using one pass, slow pull analysis.

Johnkie, in your experience, when using your left hand on an upright, do you generally wiggle around the pin, feeling for best stability, like sharpen then flatten a bit, or just leave it where it is when it's in tune?

Also, on pianos with short NSL (spinets, near the tenor break) do you find 9-12 difficult. If so, how did you deal with it?


Hi Mark,

I've been in this game for nearly 50 years and as a consequence most of my regular clients pianos only need touch ups rather than Major pitch raising. Taking it as read that only very slight adjustments are required, I find that a lever position of as close to 12 gets the best results (on both upright and grands). This position allows me to to use extremely fine adjustment by using the weight of my left arm to gently nudge the pin rather so that minute amounts of "foot turning" results, requiring nothing further than gentle massage of the wrestpin to set it.

When doing large pitch changes 12 o'clock doesn't work so well and becomes very fatiguing on the arm, so I find the 10 o'clock position gives me more power to acutually turn the foot of the pin with larger degrees. If possible I still reposition the lever back to 12 for the final setting of the pin though.

The final part of your question "do I turn the pin and leave it" ..... no ! I always do the "wiggle" to ensure that the NSL is slightly positively charged, unless it's a first pitch raise rush through to get the tension on the bridges and soundboard prior to a fine tuning.

I consider getting the foot of the pin in the optimum position first and then,, and only then, use the wiggle ( as opposed to serious flag polling) as a means to check for minimal NSL positivity. 12 o'clock, in my experience, allows whole pin to move without having undue flag polling, and makes it easier to set the pin without having to fight the effects of the natural tendency of pins being flexed when using either the 9 or 3 lever positions.

I hope that makes sense to you mark .... I find it mich easier to do than explain in writing wink

Good day, Johnkie
Thank you very much for such a detailed interesting essay. I had not understood you in one moment? Upright piano is really closer to 12:00. But for grand piano we should be placed the handle of a hammer closer to 18:00 it's so?

#2303959 - 07/19/14 08:57 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Mark Cerisano]  
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,098
Maximillyan Offline
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Maximillyan  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,098
KZ
Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT
Originally Posted by Grandpianoman
Johnkie,

Thanks for your explanation, very informative.

Question...is it true that there is a slight amount of flagpolling in using a tuning lever regardless whether you want flagpolling or not when turning the lever to move the pin, or a very slight flagpolling just "wiggling" it as you say?



Yes. Unless you are using a T-lever, or Levitan's C-lever.

The reason: The applied force to the pin is a certain distance away and above the pin. Turning a pin = turning moment (force x distance from pin) plus bending moment (force x distance above pin)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moment_(physics)


Reduce the bending moment and make it's = 0 is the main message of a method of (9-12)

#2303982 - 07/19/14 10:17 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]  
Joined: Jun 2011
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MU51C JP Offline
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MU51C JP  Offline
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England
Hello Max,

Yes I have to admit that 18:00 in theory should be the best position when tuning grands, but in practice it tends to be impractical ( unless perhaps one is using one of the C type levers ).

The main issue I associate with lever position and tuning stability, is to try to get the tuning lever handle to be as close as possible ' in line with the direction of the string'. In this position there tends to be much less liklihood of distortion of the wrestpin (flag polling).

Perhaps now would be a good time to to apologise for being a little harsh and critical of your tuning skill and technique Max. I now realise how dedicated and focused you remain on improvement, and sincerely wish you well with your endevours. There is still a long way for you to go, but I have to give you top marks for commitment and dedication .... it's a great pity that there is not a good professional tuner near to you that would take you under their wing .... I'm convinced that you would make a great and committed apprentice.

Some very kind people have donated tools and books for you to learn and work with, but sadly there is no one there to guide and mentor you .... if there had been your progress would no doubt have been far beyond where you find yourself at present.

I hope that some day you will feel confident and able to provide the necessary skill to satisfy the needs of those wonderful talented pianists whose videos you post here.

Best wishes.


Concert Tuner & Technician for the past 52 years in the United Kingdom
www.jphillipspianoservices.freeindex.co.uk : E-mail jophillips06@aol.com
#2304080 - 07/19/14 03:48 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Mark Cerisano]  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,726
Grandpianoman Offline
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Grandpianoman  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,726
Portland, Oregon
Very little Mark....many times I hardly flagpole at all. The more I use this lever, the better I get at flagpolling less...what I like is that I control the flagpolling, not the lever so to speak.

I have many unisons on my M&H BB from about A4 down that are still clean sounding, and a fair amount of treble notes from about C6 up, and this is after 2 weeks of loud, classical concert piano rolls. This has not happened before I began using the C lever. The unisons from A4 up to appx C6 have gone out more than the rest of the piano...lots of heavy playing in that area.

Last edited by Grandpianoman; 07/19/14 10:48 PM. Reason: spelling
#2304250 - 07/20/14 12:40 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: MU51C JP]  
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,098
Maximillyan Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Maximillyan  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,098
KZ
Originally Posted by Johnkie
Hello Max,

Yes I have to admit that 18:00 in theory should be the best position when tuning grands, but in practice it tends to be impractical ( unless perhaps one is using one of the C type levers ).

The main issue I associate with lever position and tuning stability, is to try to get the tuning lever handle to be as close as possible ' in line with the direction of the string'. In this position there tends to be much less liklihood of distortion of the wrestpin (flag polling).

Perhaps now would be a good time to to apologise for being a little harsh and critical of your tuning skill and technique Max. I now realise how dedicated and focused you remain on improvement, and sincerely wish you well with your endevours. There is still a long way for you to go, but I have to give you top marks for commitment and dedication .... it's a great pity that there is not a good professional tuner near to you that would take you under their wing .... I'm convinced that you would make a great and committed apprentice.

Some very kind people have donated tools and books for you to learn and work with, but sadly there is no one there to guide and mentor you .... if there had been your progress would no doubt have been far beyond where you find yourself at present.

I hope that some day you will feel confident and able to provide the necessary skill to satisfy the needs of those wonderful talented pianists whose videos you post here.

Best wishes.

Hello,Johnkie
Now I'm all clear with a handle where it's must in a grand
I must say that you should was not apologize before me. All your words to me were spoken with love in a Forum here. You would just try send me and my actions in a constructive direction, I suppose. Your competent and beautiful literary English was able to give me the strength to move forward and improve my level tuning. Now I can be wrong, but that you and (rxd) encouraged me to a more thorough study of the technical processes wrestplank and a pin . Yours words was a sting for my brain. This method (9-12), and more correctly (close to 12) is the result of my thoughts and own practice. I take yours satisfaction. I always be treat you as a tuner having huge practice, and I am honored that you can find time to answer me.

What... my level now. I am full of strength and energy to go further. I do not regret of past days. Only dreams of the future and persistence, although it is very difficult. Many people spat in Max's side but my clients are numerically small with me because to separate own last crumbs. Max is alive thanks to these donations. We need to make art even where lawlessness prevails and gloom as in Kazakhstan. Today, Max is forced most of their time engaged in heavy physical labor (growing vegetables in the garden), so not to starve to death. But there are bright moments in his life, he looking and to hope awaits it's. When those moments come Max is doing a tuning. How I wanna and can these tunes pianos and to give people pleasure in the sounds of the piano. Someone MUST to carry his cross here in Kazakhstan, no matter what.
Our forum and all its participants is a small rickety bridge that could help to Max.
Special thanks for your words,Johnkie about my girls pianists. I shall tell them your words definitely. Max can not fail to improve him tuning now because many people very intently to observe above him acts .
With respect and trepidation, Yours sincerely, Max

#2305273 - 07/22/14 09:57 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Olek]  
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,098
Maximillyan Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Maximillyan  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,098
KZ
Originally Posted by Olek
Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT
Originally Posted by Grandpianoman
Johnkie,

Thanks for your explanation, very informative.

Question...is it true that there is a slight amount of flagpolling in using a tuning lever regardless whether you want flagpolling or not when turning the lever to move the pin, or a very slight flagpolling just "wiggling" it as you say?



Yes. Unless you are using a T-lever, or Levitan's C-lever.

The reason: The applied force to the pin is a certain distance away and above the pin. Turning a pin = turning moment (force x distance from pin) plus bending moment (force x distance above pin)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moment_(physics)


Yes Mark, physics is admirable, but no one consider that the pin is not on his own, but retained by a 700N force that the tuner can use as a support to master bending. It does not avoid it but make an inflexion point That will lay the pin in the block before bending is released. The ratio is similar for pin to pin, we only have to take it in account.

Yes, Isaac is basic "An art of management a handle of a hammer". A tuner is always must without danger do it's. His manipulation own palm in a point of a handle is intelligently action + huge practice

#2306803 - 07/25/14 03:06 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Mark Cerisano]  
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,098
Maximillyan Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Maximillyan  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,098
KZ
Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT
on pianos with short NSL (spinets, near the tenor break) do you find 9-12 difficult. If so, how did you deal with it?

Yesterday did tuning upright piano "WEINBACH" GDRs end 60th years. NSL really short. It was very difficult to "catch" the sounds of the choir for me. Also very hard a pin seated in a pinblock. I worked my left hand palm while lifting a pitch and only my fingers left hand downward movement of a handle hammer. I did use the T-bar in the bass, because it is very tightly pins here. And I worked all palm of my left and right hands. Perhaps you are right, Mark, very difficult and virtually impossible to apply (9-12) for the spinet
Regards,Max

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