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#1972278 - 10/12/12 11:55 AM Metallic "tick"  
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Mark Cerisano Offline
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Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Yamaha apartment size ca.1970.
Moderately grooved hammers.
A4 and B4 have a metallic ticking sound.
Needling grooves does nothing.
Ticking present when each string is isolated.
Filing doesn't help.
Needling shoulders doesn't help.
Hammer head, catcher is not loose.
Ticking is on attack.
No other notes have it and it is obvious.
Steaming doesn't help.
Suggestions?


Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
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#1972288 - 10/12/12 12:30 PM Re: Metallic "tick" [Re: Mark Cerisano]  
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Dan Casdorph Offline
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If its not a spinet action, I would move the hammer assembly up or down a few notes, to see if the sound moves with it, then move the wippen up or down, and see if it follows. You may then isolate or eliminate something. Damper spring?


Casdorph Piano Service
Morgantown, WV
www.casdorphpiano.com
All pianos are bald ones.
#1972289 - 10/12/12 12:31 PM Re: Metallic "tick" [Re: Mark Cerisano]  
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BDB Offline
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Look for something between the bridge and the strings, springs, or loose dampers or spoons.


Semipro Tech
#1972333 - 10/12/12 02:17 PM Re: Metallic "tick" [Re: Mark Cerisano]  
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MU51C JP Online content
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England
Worn damper tail felts maybe ?


Concert Tuner & Technician for the past 52 years in the United Kingdom
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#1972336 - 10/12/12 02:28 PM Re: Metallic "tick" [Re: Mark Cerisano]  
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rysowers Offline
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Olympia, WA
My guess is broken spring loop. When the loop breaks the spring pops up and can hit against a metal action rail.



Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net
#1972344 - 10/12/12 02:53 PM Re: Metallic "tick" [Re: Mark Cerisano]  
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Zeno Wood Offline
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Even though the hammer head doesn't feel loose, I bet it is.


Zeno Wood, Piano Technician
Brooklyn College
#1972348 - 10/12/12 03:03 PM Re: Metallic "tick" [Re: Mark Cerisano]  
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wayne walker Offline
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I had a Yamaha LU-101 with the same problem, did everything on the list, still had the tick. After 2 or 3 years I found the problem, loose capstain, a little CA glue to tighten the thread and the noise is gone.


Wayne Walker
Walker's Piano Service
http://www.walkerpiano.ca/
#1972354 - 10/12/12 03:13 PM Re: Metallic "tick" [Re: Mark Cerisano]  
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Scott Schroeter Offline
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Also check that the brass hammer flange pin plate screw is tight. Sorry, mental block on it's correct name.


Scott Schroeter
Artist Pianos Ltd.
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Yamaha - Kawai - Mason & Hamlin
#1972356 - 10/12/12 03:17 PM Re: Metallic "tick" [Re: Mark Cerisano]  
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CC2 and Chopin lover Offline
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I find it interesting that most assumed it was an upright. "Apartment sized" what?
If it's a grand, check the set screw on the flange where the damper wire enters the hole in the flange. Also, check to see if the damper is making contact with the string as it rises or falls. You specifically referenced it as a "metallic" ticking sound. I would first look at places where metal can possibly hit metal.


Piano Technician/Tuner
#1972380 - 10/12/12 04:29 PM Re: Metallic "tick" [Re: Mark Cerisano]  
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accordeur Offline
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Québec, Canada
Bent bridle wire is clicking against neighbouring back check wire?


Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca
#1972408 - 10/12/12 06:16 PM Re: Metallic "tick" [Re: Mark Cerisano]  
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Tuner X Offline
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Loose action bracket, worn out rubber cap on hammer rail stabilizer where it contacts plate?

All the best!

#1972410 - 10/12/12 06:17 PM Re: Metallic "tick" [Re: Mark Cerisano]  
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Silverwood Pianos Offline
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Originally Posted by CC2 and Chopin lover
I find it interesting that most assumed it was an upright. "Apartment sized" what?
If it's a grand, check the set screw on the flange where the damper wire enters the hole in the flange. Also, check to see if the damper is making contact with the string as it rises or falls. You specifically referenced it as a "metallic" ticking sound. I would first look at places where metal can possibly hit metal.


People use the term ā€œapartment sizeā€ to describe a small console upright piano. The word "spinetā€ described an early type of virginal.


Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
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"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."
#1972449 - 10/12/12 07:53 PM Re: Metallic "tick" [Re: Silverwood Pianos]  
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CC2 and Chopin lover Offline
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Ahhh....interesting. Never came across that term before. Thanks!!


Piano Technician/Tuner
#1972476 - 10/12/12 08:49 PM Re: Metallic "tick" [Re: Mark Cerisano]  
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Dave B Offline
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Philadelphia area
It could be any of the suggestions posted so far. I would first reglue the hammer head.


"Imagine it in all its primatic colorings, its counterpart in our souls - our souls that are great pianos whose strings, of honey and of steel, the divisions of the rainbow set twanging, loosing on the air great novels of adventure!" - William Carlos Williams
#1972689 - 10/13/12 09:27 AM Re: Metallic "tick" [Re: rysowers]  
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Dale Fox Offline
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Nor California Sacramento area
Originally Posted by rysowers
My guess is broken spring loop. When the loop breaks the spring pops up and can hit against a metal action rail.



This one gets my top vote. Of all the things that go wrong with Yamaha uprights, butt spring cord breakage is the most common. They're all going to break so plan on fixing them all eventually.


Dale Fox
Registered Piano Technician
Remanufacturing/Rebuilding
#1972693 - 10/13/12 09:39 AM Re: Metallic "tick" [Re: Mark Cerisano]  
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Jerry Groot RPT Offline
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Grand Rapids Michigan
Mine too what Dale and Ryan said. All great answers though!


Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.
#1973026 - 10/14/12 05:31 AM Re: Metallic "tick" [Re: Mark Cerisano]  
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rXd Offline
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All of the above, plus,
A loose flange screw or butt plate can sound remarkably like a loose hammerhead.
I used to find, in mid '70's vintage Yamahas that the center pin embedded itself into its groove in the butt a bit too far making tightening of the butt plate screw ineffective. It happened rarely but I used to shim the groove with a strip of paper of the appropriate thickness (glue not necessary). It is, of course possible to file the wood that forms the mating surface with the buttplate but I believe the shim to restore the original dimensions and be quicker. It has the added advantage of being reversible even though it would never be necessary.

Just another of many possibilities.


Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.


#1973041 - 10/14/12 06:44 AM Re: Metallic "tick" [Re: Mark Cerisano]  
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Loren D Offline
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PA
I once traced the very same sound to a loose keytop. The tick was actually coming from the key when striking it, but it sounded like it was within the action. Regluing the top solved the problem.

Re Yamaha butt flanges: I don't bother with the cord any more. Never could stand doing that anyway! Now I just install new flanges. Doesn't take any longer, plus the customer gets new bushings and center pins.


DiGiorgi Piano Service
http://www.digiorgipiano.com
#1973196 - 10/14/12 02:04 PM Re: Metallic "tick" [Re: Mark Cerisano]  
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rysowers Offline
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Olympia, WA
If the butt flanges have the plate, it is much faster to just replace the cords. The trick is to not even unhook the bridle tapes but loosen the plate screws and pull the butts out of the way. The flanges stay attached to the rail. almost no alignment and traveling issues this way and no repinning to do. I think the whole job took me around 4 hours the last time I did it.


Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net
#1973197 - 10/14/12 02:06 PM Re: Metallic "tick" [Re: Loren D]  
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James Carney Offline
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James Carney  Offline
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new york city
Originally Posted by Loren D
I once traced the very same sound to a loose keytop. The tick was actually coming from the key when striking it, but it sounded like it was within the action. Regluing the top solved the problem.

Re Yamaha butt flanges: I don't bother with the cord any more. Never could stand doing that anyway! Now I just install new flanges. Doesn't take any longer, plus the customer gets new bushings and center pins.


I carry replacement cord with me, and always try to repair with that before installing a new flange. If you use a new flange you may well change the travel of the shank and alignment of the hammer head; if the hammer is worn and/or has string cuts it might affect the tone.


Keyboardist & Composer, Piano Technician
www.jamescarney.net
http://jamescarneypianotuning.wordpress.com/
#1973202 - 10/14/12 02:18 PM Re: Metallic "tick" [Re: Mark Cerisano]  
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James Carney Offline
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James Carney  Offline
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new york city
Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT
Yamaha apartment size ca.1970.
Moderately grooved hammers.
A4 and B4 have a metallic ticking sound.
Needling grooves does nothing.
Ticking present when each string is isolated.
Filing doesn't help.
Needling shoulders doesn't help.
Hammer head, catcher is not loose.
Ticking is on attack.
No other notes have it and it is obvious.
Steaming doesn't help.
Suggestions?


Mark never replied to questions on the type of piano but I just reread his post and it indeed is a vertical, not a grand. How can we be sure? He mentions that the "catcher is not loose."


Keyboardist & Composer, Piano Technician
www.jamescarney.net
http://jamescarneypianotuning.wordpress.com/
#1973293 - 10/14/12 07:33 PM Re: Metallic "tick" [Re: Mark Cerisano]  
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rysowers Offline
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rysowers  Offline
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Olympia, WA
I hope we find out soon what it was! The suspense is killing me!!
[Linked Image]


Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net
#1973322 - 10/14/12 08:59 PM Re: Metallic "tick" [Re: Silverwood Pianos]  
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kpembrook Offline
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kpembrook  Offline
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Michigan
Originally Posted by Silverwood Pianos

Originally Posted by CC2 and Chopin lover
I find it interesting that most assumed it was an upright. "Apartment sized" what?
If it's a grand, check the set screw on the flange where the damper wire enters the hole in the flange. Also, check to see if the damper is making contact with the string as it rises or falls. You specifically referenced it as a "metallic" ticking sound. I would first look at places where metal can possibly hit metal.


People use the term ā€œapartment sizeā€ to describe a small console upright piano. The word "spinetā€ described an early type of virginal.


In much sales literature of the era when they were produced (mostly in too great a number) the 36" vertical piano was called a spinet. I believe there is a pronunciation difference, though. . .
The 36" vertical piano is called a SPIN et and the virginal is called a Spuh NETTE


Keith Akins, RPT
Piano Technologist
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair
#1973324 - 10/14/12 09:06 PM Re: Metallic "tick" [Re: Mark Cerisano]  
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Mark Cerisano Offline
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Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Hi Everyone,

I had selected "Watch Topic" but never received any emails on the replies. I just read them all now. Some points:
It is an upright. I never imagined that anyone would have been confused. I have never heard of an "apartment size" grand. Baby grand and parlour grand, yes, but not apartment size grand.
I will try isolating the hammer assembly from the damper/wippen assembly.
I will look at the bridge/strings.
What's a damper tail felt?
Not sure if it has spring loops but the tick is exactly on attack, so that would be a coincidence. I'll check.
I'll drop some ca glue on the hammer/shank joint.
Will check capstans.
Not sure if it has damper block screws with metal cylinders. Will check.
I know the sound of bridle wire clicking. This is not it but I'll check to be sure.
Loose action bracket would be heard on more notes I think. Will check. (They are close to one)
Hammer rail stabilizer?
Virginal? Hmmm...
Re:replacing flanges with cords. For the love of Pete! Cut the center pins close to the flange. Messed that one up TWICE! (That was for me in case I read this again in 20 years)
Will check the flange screws and butt plates, if present.
Will check keytop.

I will get back to you when I try these out.

Thanks for all the great suggestions. (The suspense is also killing me.)





Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
#1973374 - 10/14/12 10:55 PM Re: Metallic "tick" [Re: Mark Cerisano]  
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Minnesota Marty Offline

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Rochester MN
Comments from a pianist -

I have never heard anyone refer to any piano as "apartment size," and certainly never from an RPT.

A pianist will refer to, and use the terms, Spinet, Console, Studio, or Grand. Grands would be subdivided into Small, Medium, Recital, and Concert. "Baby" doesn't enter in at all.

In the lobby of Orchestra Hall in Chicago, after hearing a performance of the Brahms 2nd. Piano Concerto, a woman next to me exclaimed to her husband; "Wasn't that a beautiful baby grand!"

If a Steinway-S has a Dampp-Chaser system, and you keep it filled with milk, will it grow into an S&S-D? I sure would hate having to deal with an adolescent piano on a daily basis.

grin


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
#1973377 - 10/14/12 11:08 PM Re: Metallic "tick" [Re: Mark Cerisano]  
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Jerry Groot RPT Offline
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Grand Rapids Michigan
I would hate having to milk it... smile


Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.
#1973435 - 10/15/12 03:56 AM Re: Metallic "tick" [Re: Mark Cerisano]  
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MU51C JP Online content
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England
Mark:

The damper tail felt is located where the damper spoon contacts the tail of the damper.

I agree that it does get rather confusing sometimes when posters omit to say what type of piano they are referring to - It would be much easier for all concerned if either "upright" or "grand" were used .... as we generally do here in the UK. wink


Concert Tuner & Technician for the past 52 years in the United Kingdom
www.jphillipspianoservices.freeindex.co.uk : E-mail jophillips06@aol.com
#1973538 - 10/15/12 10:48 AM Re: Metallic "tick" [Re: Minnesota Marty]  
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Steve Jackson Offline
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Zichron Yaacov, Israel
Originally Posted by Minnesota Marty
Comments from a pianist -

I have never heard anyone refer to any piano as "apartment size," and certainly never from an RPT.

grin


This marketing term became popular in Toronto in the 60's when there was a huge high-rise building spree, and now, around here, has become common. Lately, I have been hearing 'condo sized'.

Take care,

Steve

#1973561 - 10/15/12 12:12 PM Re: Metallic "tick" [Re: Mark Cerisano]  
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Dave B Offline
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Philadelphia area
Marty, Referring to a "Steinway" piano as if it were a cow has to be the ultimate Steinway bashing. Sorry, but that's the way I veal.

Last edited by Dave B; 10/15/12 12:13 PM.

"Imagine it in all its primatic colorings, its counterpart in our souls - our souls that are great pianos whose strings, of honey and of steel, the divisions of the rainbow set twanging, loosing on the air great novels of adventure!" - William Carlos Williams
#1973573 - 10/15/12 12:42 PM Re: Metallic "tick" [Re: Mark Cerisano]  
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That Guy Offline
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Lincoln, NE
Quote
I would hate having to milk it...


Oh oh, looks like you guys are going to "milk" this for all it's worth...


Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
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