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Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90] #1971807
10/11/12 11:59 AM
10/11/12 11:59 AM
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I am absolutely lost. That's why I have dropped out of the discussion. frown


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Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: keystring] #1971808
10/11/12 11:59 AM
10/11/12 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by keystring
I'm getting lost. A few days ago PianoStudent88 said she was still working on Sonatina 4 and needed to backtrack to it before getting to Air Suisse. Then Richard wrote that "we" are finished with Air Suisse, and now we are on to number 6? I just looked back umpteen pages. I don't believe that the group has completed all of these sonatinas. In fact, the only people left are Greener, Richard, P88, Gary and myself. Unless P88 has caught up, then we are not finished previous pieces. I am still catching up to 3, 4, and Suisse.


Sorry for the confusion KS. If you look back to October 1 at 10:23 AM EDT, this is where we started No. 5. We did all the movements, but intermixed with several other theory lessons and discussion. Yes, including PS88 wanted to go back to No. 4 and discussion continued there for a bit.

Meanwhile, I was chomping at the bit on No. 5 and when I got the green light, we progressed through Air Suisse (not a great deal of discussion on this one) and then Rondo, just yesterday. So, now I have posted No 6.

Will await your, or consensus approval to proceed. And, happy to further discuss, any up to No. 5 until everyone is comfortable with these analysis to date.


Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90] #1971814
10/11/12 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by keystring

I'm reading about a rondo (also apparently finished), and a prelude 4.


Prelude No. 4 was my little diversion to ask Richard for some help. So, sorry about this, it is not thread related, but I thought easier to ask here. But, will not continue here (that is, after this note smile .)

Originally Posted by zrtf90

Hanon provides the sort of exercise they need but not the system. Do exercise 21 at a steady even tempo about the same speed as you intend to do this prelude. One octave up and down is sufficient. When you're comfortable with it do it in dotted rhythm. When you're comfortable with that you need a way to control the fingers without letting them fly. Do Ex. 21 in the RH and Ex. # 1 in LH (at half the speed). One octave up and down for 7 to 10 days then see if it's made a difference in the prelude.If you take to it easily use a different Ex. from Hanon Vol. 1. in LH. Keep the brain engaged and you won't find it boring.


Thanks, Richard. Yes, keen to give this a try. Will I find this "Hanon exercises" online somewhere?

NO NEED TO ANSWER. FOUND IT

Last edited by Greener; 10/11/12 01:25 PM. Reason: Found it
Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90] #1971817
10/11/12 12:12 PM
10/11/12 12:12 PM
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We're always ready to discuss what's gone before but some of us may be able to discuss it with a greater familiarity.

The prelude was a backtrack to Bach.

Join in wherever you are, keystring. The pieces don't go out of date. If you're reading the whole thread post from wherever you are. If you're only reading from the current page post on where you're at in the sonatinas. There are aspects we can't have covered given the time we've spent (or not spent!) on each bit and it does no harm to say the same thing again though you're more likely to add a new slant.



Richard
Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90] #1971825
10/11/12 12:45 PM
10/11/12 12:45 PM
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I am always happy to backtrack and talk about something that went earlier. To me "done" means "I've said/asked everything I can think of, but I'm always open to new insights, and even to re-covering the same material."

I've said everything I need to say/ask on Sonatina 4.

I'm not quite done with Sonatina 5. I dived into the Movement 2 Air Suisse and have said/asked everything I needed to say/ask with it, but I haven't actually done Movement 1 (or Movement 3), and I would like to.

Can we hold off on Sonatina 6 until I catch up on Sonatina 5?

I would like to be able to be fully engaged in Sonatina 6 at the same time as the main discussion is happening, but I'd really like another day to catch up on #5 before diving into #6.

keystring and Gary, would it be OK for you to just do a "reset" and join back in on Sonatina 6 when we get to it in a day or two (assuming that my request to wait till I'm done with #5 is accepted)? Not that there's any obligation of course for you to join in at any level, but I think you both add a lot to the thread.

keystring, the Preludes that Greener has brought up are from the Bach Six Little Preludes. Greener started working on them when we had the (now-abandoned) binary form thread. They're not connected to the subject of this thread, and I think just came up as a quick comment from Greener, and then that side topic unexpectedly grew into several posts.


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Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90] #1971826
10/11/12 12:46 PM
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Is there some better way for us to regulate the pace of the thread, or to make clearer what we're talking about?

I don't want us to say "no we won't go back and discuss previous material." Unfortunately, revisiting previous material does bring the possibility of confusion when renewed conversations about previous material intermingle with current conversations about the latest material.

Is there some way we can reduce the confusion? Should we be doing more of a check-in before proceeding to a new movement, and waiting longer to hear from some larger core of people before proceeding? And who should be in that core?


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Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Gary D.] #1971827
10/11/12 12:47 PM
10/11/12 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Gary D.
I am absolutely lost. That's why I have dropped out of the discussion. frown


Please come back, Gary. We are trying to get things sorted out, and almost done with this series of Sonatas. Your input is very much appreciated and valued.

Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: PianoStudent88] #1971839
10/11/12 01:17 PM
10/11/12 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by PianoStudent88

I'm not quite done with Sonatina 5. I dived into the Movement 2 Air Suisse and have said/asked everything I needed to say/ask with it, but I haven't actually done Movement 1 (or Movement 3), and I would like to.

Can we hold off on Sonatina 6 until I catch up on Sonatina 5?

I would like to be able to be fully engaged in Sonatina 6 at the same time as the main discussion is happening, but I'd really like another day to catch up on #5 before diving into #6.


I'm happy to announce, your request is approved.

Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90] #1971854
10/11/12 01:49 PM
10/11/12 01:49 PM
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Has anyone any experience of threads that rely on such participation and how they manage?

It would seem reasonable to allow a certain passage of time for each sonata/sontina, perhaps we could do one per week and those with more time can do all the movements and those with less can just do one movement.

Any other ideas (apart from getting Greener to do a large symphony between movements)?



Richard
Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90] #1971862
10/11/12 02:02 PM
10/11/12 02:02 PM
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People are going to go at different speeds. What would be very helpful is to always name which sonata is being referred to. So not "the rondo" but "the rondo in S. 5". Not m. 23, but "m. 23, rondo (or movement x), S. 4". You are already open to the idea that some of us will be discussing sonatas that others have already finished. That is necessary and is already happening. I freelance with an uneven workload so I tend to do things in lurches.

Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90] #1971881
10/11/12 02:17 PM
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Good idea, keystring. Name the work at the top of the post.



Richard
Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90] #1971894
10/11/12 02:40 PM
10/11/12 02:40 PM
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I'm working on sonata 4. Does anyone know around what date that starts? I have 46 pages listed here in the way the discussions are paginated for me.

Found it - Sep. 24

edit - answer was that what I found was the end of S. 3. nm question.

Found it; First discussion of S. 4 starts with this (Greener) Sep. 24
Quote
Just realized the numbering is all messed up on first page. I will fix and update link in short order. If following this from the numbered score, please recount measures up to M22. Sorry bout that ...

Meanwhile, having a bit of a struggle just with the keys in this movement, so will start mainly with that.

Exposition; M1-30
M1-M12 F Major
M13-M30 C Major ....

Last edited by keystring; 10/11/12 03:08 PM. Reason: finally found it
Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90] #1971904
10/11/12 03:00 PM
10/11/12 03:00 PM
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#4 started on Sept 24 with post #1963764


Richard
Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90] #1971938
10/11/12 04:28 PM
10/11/12 04:28 PM
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Sonata 4, movement 1

My attention was caught by this question of Greener's:

Originally Posted by Greener
By this accounting, I still have the following measures unaccounted for from exposition:

M5-M12 (M9-M12=M1-4) so just leaves M5-M8
M23-M24 (same as M20-M21)

I saw an explanation of all the parts of the movement, but I didn't catch the explanation of mm 5 - 8. I may have missed it.

Sonata 4, movement 2, andante con espressione
I'm interested in part of the B section.
Richard says m. 21 is Em7b5. This is the same as E half diminished. If you stick a C underneath then you get C E G Bb D which is C9 which naturally goes to F - the next chord is F/A. The Em7b5 also goes to F/A with E climbing to F in the bass. I understand that the half dim. chord often has the feel of a 9 chord with the same kind of function.

I agree with what was written about it.

In regards to Richard's m. 26, with the E nat. indicating an F chord, I hear it too. In m. 25 we have C7-F, and with F in the bass in m. 26, followed by Bb and the recap. in m. 27, my ear wants to hear F for all those reasons. F is V. I hear E natural as a lower neighbour, and when playing it I might want to put more weight on the F.

Did the question about mm 21 - 24 ever get resolved, Greener?

Sonata 4, movement 3, Rondo

I didn't find anything to add or ask about.
However, it's an interesting question about when composers choose the time signatures they do. This one is in 2/4 time but is full of triplets. Why not 12/16?

Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90] #1972015
10/11/12 06:26 PM
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Sonata 4, movement 1

Good catch, keystring. The reason it was missed before is that I was only concerned with finding the source material for the development.

M1-4 are the call and M5-8 are the answer but this is all in F. This is then repeated but this time the answer is changed in M13-16 for the transition to the dominant C major for the second subject.

Sonata 4, movement 2, andante con espressione

Originally Posted by keystring
Did the question about mm 21 - 24 ever get resolved, Greener?

As I understand it, the outstanding issue was that Jeff wanted his analysis of a movement to F confirmed. He did a first analysis following Gary's account of M21-23 and then we moved onto a discussion of the dim 7 chord. He later posted an analysis of the full B section and we again went off on a tangent leaving him without confirmation but I did that when the smoke cleared so it was all wrapped up.



Richard
Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90] #1972258
10/12/12 09:24 AM
10/12/12 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by zrtf90
Sonata 4, movement 1
Sonata 4, movement 2, andante con espressione

Originally Posted by keystring
Did the question about mm 21 - 24 ever get resolved, Greener?

As I understand it, the outstanding issue was that Jeff wanted his analysis of a movement to F confirmed. He did a first analysis following Gary's account of M21-23 and then we moved onto a discussion of the dim 7 chord. He later posted an analysis of the full B section and we again went off on a tangent leaving him without confirmation but I did that when the smoke cleared so it was all wrapped up.


Correct. I believe the final conclusion of this section is as below ...

Originally Posted by zrtf90
Originally Posted by Greener
Since this section is largely construed from development of movement 1, would it be safe to say that we are passing through D minor, shortly visiting F major and then heading straight home to F Major?
M21 is Em7b5. Although the third is absent, it wouldn't be G#.

The rest is pretty much there. The C#dim7 in M22 is a rootless A7 resolving to Dm.

We end up in F, yes, briefly via Dmin, but in M26 the E nat makes it F7 the dominant of M27 Bb.


Is this you mean KS? Let me know if anything else. I'd be happy to go searching for any content we may have covered. If nothing else, I can help with that.

Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90] #1972261
10/12/12 09:38 AM
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Looky there ... I just became a proud member of the "500 Post Club".

And all with no complaints about me to boot. So far as I know at least -- hope they're not storing it up for an ambush --.

I think I'll take the rest of the day off and celebrate ... with some practice, and Sonatine analysis.

This is fun stuff ...

[Linked Image]

Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90] #1972782
10/13/12 01:25 PM
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Cute smile .

Sonatina #5, movement 3. Rondo, allegro molto.

I got stumped on something in movement 1 (maybe just because the discussion was in letter names, but I had it all labelled in roman numerals), so thought I would work up to mvmt 1 by tackling mvmt 3 first. Ha ha ha ha ha.

(Measures: I number my own scores, so my measures are one less than Greener's on this one. I'm showing both, prefacing Greener's with a G.)

I roared through adding roman numerals through measure 58 (G59), and then came to a screeching halt at the B section. No problem I thought, I'll work backwards from the end of the page, and use letters, and then work out the roman numerals. That worked for a while, but eventually it got harder and harder just to work out the letters, especially from about m. 92 (G93) backwards, and I finally screeched to a halt at m.74 (G75).

So then I thought, I need to listen to this and hear what these accidentals are trying to do (wish me luck, to me and my recalcitrant ear). But I haven't gotten myself, the score, and a piano all in a room at the same time yet. Bah.

Maybe I should go back and work through mvmt 1 first after all. At least I have that entirely labelled; I think I just have to get over that little hump to match up my roman numerals with the previous discussion's letter names.


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Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90] #1972791
10/13/12 01:37 PM
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Sonatina #5, movement 3. Rondo, allegro molto.

Actually, it's not quite accurate to say that naming the chords with letters got hard. What got hard was seeing a connection between all the letter names. There's so much happening. This seems like a very fluid section. It's not just the incessant I V repetition of the A part.

Then along the way I was trying to audiate the B part, and found what seemed to be nice 8 measure phrases or subphrases to start with, and then that pattern vanished, so again I need to listen to this for real because I'm curious about where the phrases and subphrases are. Is it really a straight run from m.82 (G83) to the da capo, with no fleeting resolutions at all? No wait, re-examining it, the chords suggest a resolution at m.98 (G99), although it's not a real pause because the sixteenth notes keep rushing forward. Anyway, I need to play and listen to this whole B part to hear what's really going on.


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Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: PianoStudent88] #1972801
10/13/12 01:55 PM
10/13/12 01:55 PM
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Sonatina #5, movement 3. Rondo, allegro

More on this: I had played through this before, but it didn't really register. I guess I was thinking "third movement, rondo, simple" and didn't register what seems to be going on. I now suspect from my harmonic analysis is "ternary form, A part simple, B part surprisingly complex, worth a careful listen." Must. Listen. More.


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