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#1969954 - 10/07/12 06:11 PM How Good is the Advice From PianoWorld Members?  
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Nick Mauel Offline
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Sarasota and Naples, FL
Greetings everyone,

I thought I would pass on what I just read on a dealer's site regarding 8 myths discussed here:

http://www.steinwayarizona.com/news/buying-a-used-steinway/

Quote

MYTH #6:
Pianoworld.com is the best source for information about purchasing a piano.

Inevitably the search for piano information on the internet will lead to pianoworld.com. Pianoworld.com is dominated by a handful of technicians/salespeople who express their opinions as facts. These so-called experts apparently aren’t in such demand in their local market so they have enough time on their hands to make tens of thousands of posts. Many of these posts or advice reports are by people who don’t even exist—-they are fictitious. The ones that are real people rarely work for a Steinway dealership. In fact many of them haven’t worked on a Steinway & Sons in years and have never played a new Boston or Essex piano. They give advice on pianos they haven’t personally heard or played. The best source of information is your local piano dealer where you can physically hear and play a variety of pianos and talk face-to-face with an expert who values their reputation in the community they serve.


I liked the part I put in bold...

Your thoughts?

Thanks,

Nick


Nick's Piano Showroom
Naples, Fort Myers, & Sarasota, FL
New Estonia, Mason & Hamlin, Baldwin, Brodmann & Ritmuller
239-206-4541 direct line
www.nickspiano.com

Concert Piano Technician, Dealer, and Pianist
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#1969957 - 10/07/12 06:20 PM Re: How Good is the Advice From PianoWorld Members? [Re: Nick Mauel]  
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Furtwangler Offline
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Consider the source.

If you are ever in need of some good bulls__t, head for your nearest Steinway dealer.




#1969964 - 10/07/12 06:35 PM Re: How Good is the Advice From PianoWorld Members? [Re: Nick Mauel]  
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Rickster Offline
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Nick, you bring up a very good question... but quite frankly I do not agree with the “myth” statements you mentioned. I do not think that PW is dominated by a handful of professionals (technicians and salespeople) who have nothing else to do but hang out on PW and give biased advice all day long… there may be a few “fictitious” members here, (until they are found out and banned) but most members here, who are piano professionals, are legitimate in my view. And, I think they provide an invaluable service to our members and visitors.

Also, as I read your thread and took a look at the Steinway dealer web site you referenced, I thought about the one fictitious and deceitful member here that I recall, Piano Madam, who was actually a Steinway salesperson and turned out to have multiple forum names and personalities which were actually fictitious (who was permanently banned, by the way). I see a good bit of irony in that, based on the Steinway dealer “myths” … The pot calling the kettle black, maybe?

So, I still happen to think that Piano World is one of the best sources of piano advice and information on the internet or anywhere else…

Rick


Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
#1969966 - 10/07/12 06:38 PM Re: How Good is the Advice From PianoWorld Members? [Re: Nick Mauel]  
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PianoWorksATL Offline
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I pleased there are a few official Steinway folks that participate on occasion. However, I've noticed that the rare appearances of Steinway dealers are short-lived and tumultuous. I wonder if Steinway has ever suggested against dealer participation since I don't know of even one "regular" member.

Over on the Digital Forum, the rare appearances from manufacturers are embraced almost to the point of celebration. I wonder if that could be enjoyed here on a larger scale.

This is an invitation not just to Steinway but to any willing manufacturer: a confident, engaging voice explaining a manufacturer's point of view carries some risk but I think even more tremendous reward in a small industry like ours especially in an era when people expect to "shop" and "research" every purchase from their organic apples and "free-range" chicken to their "green" clothiers, safely-tested cosmetics and certainly pianos.

If that dealer has taken this position, they risk losing or turning away the current and next generation of buyers. Anybody here think the whole "internet" thing will just blow over our traditional industry?


Sam Bennett
PianoWorks - Atlanta Piano Dealer
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#1969971 - 10/07/12 06:44 PM Re: How Good is the Advice From PianoWorld Members? [Re: Nick Mauel]  
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Bob Newbie Offline
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Rick I agree..I'd say everyone has an opinion regarding "new" pianos,like 57 flavors of ice cream..but if your in the market for a vintage/used..PW is a wealth of trusted info by
our tech members dept.. smile

#1969980 - 10/07/12 07:07 PM Re: How Good is the Advice From PianoWorld Members? [Re: Nick Mauel]  
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Jerry Groot RPT Offline
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That Steinway sight is hard on the eyes to read, I think. More than one "myth" on that site, is just that, a myth in and of itself, written for a purpose no doubt, his own.

Older is not better? I think he is crying for piano sales... We have a 1920 Steinway D at my college that was completely rebuilt but for the sound board and bridges that is a fantastic grand! I like that one better than many of the newer pianos.

I tune the brands that he says that we do not tune and apparently, have never seen... He is sooooo full of himself and "it."

After reading what he says I, for one, would certainly not recommend that particular dealer for any reason whatsoever! He's shooting himself in the foot!

He's blowing smoke and full of baloney.


Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.
#1969995 - 10/07/12 07:48 PM Re: How Good is the Advice From PianoWorld Members? [Re: Nick Mauel]  
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Ed Foote Offline
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Nick sez:
"The best source of information is your local piano dealer where you can physically hear and play a variety of pianos and talk face-to-face with an expert who values their reputation in the community they serve."

Hmm, the biggest problem I have with that is that dealers lie. There is such a vested interest in any of them that the buyer who simply believes what the dealer says is going to buy what that dealer sells.

However, when a potential customer goes to two or three dealers, they end up calling someone like me because they have become confused. I don't sell pianos, (well I have sold 16 rebuilt ones in 32 years), so I have no brand loyalty. I have no vested interest, I have no reason to lie. I do have a lot of experience watching pianos wear, few dealers do. I think a smarter customer is going to listen to techs rather than dealers. If you want to know the most dependable car, dishwasher, computer, piano, etc. talk to the mechanics, not the salepeople.

There are many others like this on PW, we are a de facto, peer-reviewed group, and though I often see postings that my experience differs from, by and large, the info you will see distilled here is going to be of more value than what a customer will get from virtually any dealership.

Now, if there was just some way for us to make money off this...
Regards,

#1970002 - 10/07/12 08:04 PM Re: How Good is the Advice From PianoWorld Members? [Re: Nick Mauel]  
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Nick Mauel Offline
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Ed,

In your post you stated "Nick sez: ..."

This is not true.

I simply quoted something that another source is publishing as 'myth'.

I support PianoWorld as a source of good information and agree with other posters here.

Thanks,

Nick

PS - only some dealers lie.

Originally Posted by Ed Foote
Hmm, the biggest problem I have with that is that dealers lie.


Nick's Piano Showroom
Naples, Fort Myers, & Sarasota, FL
New Estonia, Mason & Hamlin, Baldwin, Brodmann & Ritmuller
239-206-4541 direct line
www.nickspiano.com

Concert Piano Technician, Dealer, and Pianist
#1970004 - 10/07/12 08:08 PM Re: How Good is the Advice From PianoWorld Members? [Re: Nick Mauel]  
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dsch Offline
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I've received excellent advice from people on this forum (even more than one person in this thread) as well as from other dealers on the phone and in person.

I know that some dealers might be shifty but the ones I've encountered have been straightforward and I have no reason to be suspect. I wish I had the bucks to support them all, but in the end there will be only one purchase.

Thanks to all who have helped me! I wish you all continued success and I am grateful for this forum.

I have to say, though, in the end, despite the advice, the books, the research--there is no substitute for making a lot of road trips.

The ear, heart, and fingers are fickle and what we like and respond to coupled with what we can afford is really an individual thing.

Last edited by dsch; 10/07/12 08:08 PM.
#1970006 - 10/07/12 08:15 PM Re: How Good is the Advice From PianoWorld Members? [Re: dsch]  
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Piano World Offline
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Parsonsfield, ME (orig. Nahant...
Originally Posted by dsch
I've received excellent advice from people on this forum (even more than one person in this thread) as well as from other dealers on the phone and in person.

I know that some dealers might be shifty but the ones I've encountered have been straightforward and I have no reason to be suspect. I wish I had the bucks to support them all, but in the end there will be only one purchase.

Thanks to all who have helped me! I wish you all continued success and I am grateful for this forum.

I have to say, though, in the end, despite the advice, the books, the research--there is no substitute for making a lot of road trips.

The ear, heart, and fingers are fickle and what we like and respond to coupled with what we can afford is really an individual thing.


Best of luck dsch,
Your last two sentences are exactly correct.

You might pick up some good ideas/suggestions here on the forums, and from books and dealers, but in the end only you can make the decision.

Keep us posted.



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#1970043 - 10/07/12 09:45 PM Re: How Good is the Advice From PianoWorld Members? [Re: Nick Mauel]  
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Rusty Fortysome Offline
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Originally Posted by Nick Mauel

MYTH #6:
Pianoworld.com is the best source for information about purchasing a piano.

Pianoworld.com is dominated by a handful of technicians/salespeople who express their opinions as facts....

RIGHT. And wrong. It is dominated by such, but it isn't completely so. This forum is called "pianoDEALERworld.com" for a reason.

However, there are lots of "normal" folks (mere consumers/players) on here. Learn to look at the sigs and see who is whom.

Quote
In fact many of them haven’t worked on a Steinway & Sons in years and have never played a new Boston or Essex piano. They give advice on pianos they haven’t personally heard or played.

BULL. I'd bet most have played on Bostons and Essex and found out how AWFUL they are. If someone on here isn't saying that, they are probably a dealer, paid schill, or have one of the few amazing Boston/Essex pianos ever made. I've run across a few very well-paid schills for Steinway/Kawai on the boards.

Quote

Your thoughts?


Use your head. If that dealer is saying that, I'd ignore him. LET THE PRODUCT SPEAK FOR ITSELF. Forget all the words: this is a world of sound and touch.


Currently working on/memorizing...
"It's You" from Robotech
"He's A Pirate"
"Crazy Bone Rag"
"What The World Needs Now"
#1970059 - 10/07/12 10:28 PM Re: How Good is the Advice From PianoWorld Members? [Re: Nick Mauel]  
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RachOn Offline
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That Arizona dealer's page sure supports the notion that Steinway believes their strongest competition is from used Steinways; and he's doing whatever he can to thwart it.


RachOn
Estonia 190; Yamaha U1
#1970105 - 10/08/12 12:04 AM Re: How Good is the Advice From PianoWorld Members? [Re: Nick Mauel]  
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backto_study_piano Offline
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Myth busted. The worst information I received was from dealers and manufacturer's agents. They were highly defensive about their product, even when presented in a lacklustre manner - which, when paying $100,000+ shouldn't happen - and even insulting to critical critique. And one dealer used the same type of dishonest tricks as a used car salesman uses.

The best information was from PianoWorld Forums.

I would add that, due to manufacturer's interference on the forum, it is essential to be sure that the comments by posters has not been watered down or edited to please such manufacturers.


Alan from Queensland, Australia (and Clara - my Grotrian Concert & Allen Organ (CF-15)).
#1970130 - 10/08/12 02:06 AM Re: How Good is the Advice From PianoWorld Members? [Re: Nick Mauel]  
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OperaTenor Offline
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Sandy Eggo, California
Myth #9

Steinway AZ is a knowledgeable, reputable, ethical, and friendly dealer.






Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
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#1970134 - 10/08/12 02:27 AM Re: How Good is the Advice From PianoWorld Members? [Re: Nick Mauel]  
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Chloe J. Scott Offline
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Obviously they find each one of those "myths" a threat to their business and they need to, as RachOn said, "thwart" them. I do tend to believe each one of those "myths" (for the most part), but not because I'm stupid, as they seem to imply, or willing to take substandard and biased opinions from people on this web site who don't seem to know what they're talking about, but because I've been around and done my homework. In fact, I've found the information, suggestions, and opinions here to be among the most reliable of any place I've been.

Funny thing is that I know the people running that particular shop in Phoenix. They are nice enough, if you're looking for a Steinway, but don't dare mention anything else or they go on a rampage. I know that they're trying to sell a particular brand, but there's no need to trash everybody else. I know a guy who owns a shop that sells Kawai, M&H, Schimmel, and several other brands. Mostly new, but he does carry several used items of whatever brands. It wouldn't do him very good to talk smack about Steinway because he might get a used one in the next day.

I believe that Steinway makes good instruments but they seem to have an over inflated view of their own selfworth. It's one thing to be proud of yourself but there's no reason to disparage everyone else just because you can't take the competition. In my opinion, Steinway is WAY over priced for what you get. I can get a piano that's just as good from M&H or somebody for half the price.

I was at a little after hours seminar at their store not too long ago and I went thinking that it was going to be a good seminar on technical stuff but only turned out to be a sales pitch. They did this thing where STEINWAY was an anagram for a bunch of things and "I" stood for "Investment". Meaning that a Steinway will hold it's value for ever just about. However, their number one "myth", that older Steinways are better than new ones, seems to contradict their own sales pitch. If they're not then why the heck are they nearly as expensive as a new one? Hmm? Answer me that?

#1970138 - 10/08/12 02:32 AM Re: How Good is the Advice From PianoWorld Members? [Re: Nick Mauel]  
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Chloe J. Scott Offline
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I did forget to mention that they tend to close up shop every two or three years and then open up 6 months later somewhere else. They've been in like 5 different locations since I've started going there about 15 years ago. I've always found that a bit odd.

#1970147 - 10/08/12 03:04 AM Re: How Good is the Advice From PianoWorld Members? [Re: Chloe J. Scott]  
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Carey Offline
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Originally Posted by James Scott
I did forget to mention that they tend to close up shop every two or three years and then open up 6 months later somewhere else. They've been in like 5 different locations since I've started going there about 15 years ago. I've always found that a bit odd.


James - My understanding is that Sherman Clay chose not to renew their five year lease for the showroom at the corner of Scottsdale Road and Acoma partially because the space was too large (expensive), the recession was in full swing, and they were having problems keeping managers. A few months later a new manager took over who opened a smaller store nearby while the current location in the same strip mall could be secured and renovated. The current and two previous locations were affiliated with Sherman Clay. I could be wrong, but I believe the other Scottsdale Road location from 15 years ago wasn't connected to Sherman Clay. My point is the the "they" you refer to weren't the same people over the years - so there is really nothing "odd" about it.


Mason and Hamlin BB - 91640
Kawai CA-65
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo
#1970149 - 10/08/12 03:07 AM Re: How Good is the Advice From PianoWorld Members? [Re: Chloe J. Scott]  
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Carey Offline
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Originally Posted by James Scott
Funny thing is that I know the people running that particular shop in Phoenix. They are nice enough, if you're looking for a Steinway, but don't dare mention anything else or they go on a rampage. I know that they're trying to sell a particular brand, but there's no need to trash everybody else. I know a guy who owns a shop that sells Kawai, M&H, Schimmel, and several other brands. Mostly new, but he does carry several used items of whatever brands. It wouldn't do him very good to talk smack about Steinway because he might get a used one in the next day.


Small world - I know all those folks too !! grin

Last edited by carey; 10/08/12 03:09 AM.

Mason and Hamlin BB - 91640
Kawai CA-65
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#1970155 - 10/08/12 03:38 AM Re: How Good is the Advice From PianoWorld Members? [Re: Nick Mauel]  
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wouter79 Offline
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Quote
These so-called experts apparently aren’t in such demand in their local market so they have enough time on their hands to make tens of thousands of posts. Many of these posts or advice reports are by people who don’t even exist—-they are fictitious.


"people that do not exist", this is a Contradictio in terminis since people always exist? Maybe he is trying to say that there are posters that use other than their real names. But that's nothing new, right?

Quote
Pianoworld.com is dominated by a handful of technicians/salespeople who express their opinions as facts


False for two reasons: There are plenty of dominant non-techs/salespeople here.

I guess he is entirely focused on steinway-related posts and ignores the rest of the world.

I believe the advice you get here is more objective and nuanced than the advice from this Steinway dealer.

Last edited by wouter79; 10/08/12 03:38 AM.

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#1970168 - 10/08/12 05:21 AM Re: How Good is the Advice From PianoWorld Members? [Re: Nick Mauel]  
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Ken Knapp Offline
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This sounds similar to statements discussed in THIS TOPIC.


Ken

Hammond Organ Technician
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#1970236 - 10/08/12 09:44 AM Re: How Good is the Advice From PianoWorld Members? [Re: Nick Mauel]  
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TheSockPuppet Offline
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What is a "Yamaha Products Manager?" Sound an awful lot like piano salesman to me.

#1970243 - 10/08/12 10:05 AM Re: How Good is the Advice From PianoWorld Members? [Re: Nick Mauel]  
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Rickster Offline
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Originally Posted by thesockpuppet
What is a "Yamaha Products Manager?" Sound an awful lot like piano salesman to me.

Okay, sock… your comment is a sarcastic jab at Ken Knapp. You are treading on thin ice here… you haven’t been around much lately, but you come in here and attempt to discredit Ken in some way. Well, as we say here in the south, it ain’t gonna work…

Yes, Ken works in the piano/organ business… so what? I know of no one on this forum, or in real life who has more character and integrity than Ken Knapp…

Rick


Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
#1970289 - 10/08/12 12:03 PM Re: How Good is the Advice From PianoWorld Members? [Re: Nick Mauel]  
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This is a strange, unsettling, thread. I guess I am not a real person according to the first post? I am not a tech, tuner, piano manufacturer, store owner, salesman, or whatever. Just a piano addict and I come to this site every day because it interests me a lot. I have some experience with Steinway, the pianos, and the stores. I like the pianos a lot, but I bought a Mason-Hamlin. Why? I liked it a lot and the prices on Steinways were impossible for me. It's really that simple. The local Steinway dealer was very nice and his pianos were great. Just too much money. I had to buy a used Mason-Hamlin to get into a price range I could live with, but a similar aged Steinway would have still been way over my budget. Not sure why Steinway doesn't give a little more discount. I truly believe the Mason-Hamlin is just as well built and maybe even better. I know Steinway believes itself to be in a higher league than other pianos and I think, if you are a manufacturer with a long history of research and design patents, you are expected to feel that way, but I imagine most top tier companies feel the same way. Bechstein, Bosie, etc. must feel they are the best at what they do, too. There is room in the world for lots of different brands. The accusations that PW is not made up of real people interested in sharing piano information is ridiculous. Any site may have a few phonies, but I have learned much reading the posts here and on the technicians threads, as well as tips on performing on the other forums. I think PW is a great service to the piano community.

#1970293 - 10/08/12 12:32 PM Re: How Good is the Advice From PianoWorld Members? [Re: Chopinlover49]  
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pianoloverus Offline
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Originally Posted by Chopinlover49
This is a strange, unsettling, thread. I guess I am not a real person according to the first post?
The first post quoted an article from a Steinway dealer's website. I don't think it's meant to be he the actual opinion of the person starting this thread. The majority of non dealer posters at PW don't use their real names so I wouldn't worry about not being a real person.

That being said I'm not sure about why the thread was started to begin with. I think it's obvious that most PW posters wouldn't agree with what was posted on the Steinway dealer's site. Since the thread was started by a dealer, it appears to me as if the thread is an example of one dealer starting a thread to bad mouth another dealer or company.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 10/08/12 12:37 PM.
#1970301 - 10/08/12 12:50 PM Re: How Good is the Advice From PianoWorld Members? [Re: Nick Mauel]  
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Minnesota Marty  Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Joined: May 2012
Posts: 7,439
Rochester MN
CL49,

Do you realize that the first posting, from Nick Mauel, was a quote from a Steinway dealership putting all of us at Piano World down? It was nothing more than truly embarrassing verbage from a dealer with a bad case of sour grapes. Obviously this site carries some weight, and notice, within the piano industry or that particular dealership wouldn't feel so compelled to lash out.

As a very proud owner of three Steinways, I do observe however, that "Steinway bashing" seems to be very much in fashion in this particular forum.


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
#1970302 - 10/08/12 12:52 PM Re: How Good is the Advice From PianoWorld Members? [Re: Nick Mauel]  
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 7,439
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014
Minnesota Marty  Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Joined: May 2012
Posts: 7,439
Rochester MN
PLU - Seems we were typing at the same time.


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
#1970317 - 10/08/12 01:27 PM Re: How Good is the Advice From PianoWorld Members? [Re: Minnesota Marty]  
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,227
Steve Chandler Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Steve Chandler  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,227
Urbandale, Iowa
Originally Posted by Minnesota Marty

As a very proud owner of three Steinways, I do observe however, that "Steinway bashing" seems to be very much in fashion in this particular forum.

Steinway as a company makes fine instruments and has much to be proud of. Where Steinway goes nuts is when it comes to their competition. When Steinway dismisses some of the oldest most respected brands in the world they lose credibility. For non-musicians that's okay, they know the Steinway name and nothing else. That's a testament to Steinway's marketing prowess. However, when pianists play other instruments they realize there're many fine brands out there and ultimately the bad mouthing reflects badly on the company that seems to do it the most, Steinway.

In this case all the Arizona Steinway dealer has accomplished is to advertise the Piano World site on his own web page. Anyone coming here from that site reading this thread would realize the folly of those words. I don't understand why some business people do that. In general I believe there's a lot of respect for Steinway here, after all they do make a great piano (just not always). What that dealer refers to as bashing is just observations of reality. Has Steinway addressed their QC problems from a few years ago? I believe so, but anyone shopping and playing instruments will realize that there are brands that offer far better value, but they're not Steinways.

#1970334 - 10/08/12 02:13 PM Re: How Good is the Advice From PianoWorld Members? [Re: Nick Mauel]  
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,577
Dave B Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Dave B  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,577
Philadelphia area
Marty, I think the forum reflects the same opinion of Steinway as I hold personally. Steinway is a wonderful piano. Especially the model "D". Problems arise with their marketing tactics and with postings like the perfect example presented at the start of this thread.

As a regular visitor to Piano World, I find the statement offensive and feel it should be removed.


"Imagine it in all its primatic colorings, its counterpart in our souls - our souls that are great pianos whose strings, of honey and of steel, the divisions of the rainbow set twanging, loosing on the air great novels of adventure!" - William Carlos Williams
#1970335 - 10/08/12 02:18 PM Re: How Good is the Advice From PianoWorld Members? [Re: Nick Mauel]  
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 640
Forrest Halford Offline
500 Post Club Member
Forrest Halford  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 640
Bowling Green, KY
How good is the advice from PianoWorld members?

I get all my medical advice here. They are GREAT.

Forrest


PTG Associate Member
Bach 870, 883
Brahms Op. 117
#1970358 - 10/08/12 03:30 PM Hey Steinway dealer [Re: Nick Mauel]  
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 558
Guapo Gabacho Offline
500 Post Club Member
Guapo Gabacho  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 558
Rio Grande Valley of Texas
A few people disagree with you:
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