Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Any warning about changing hammers?

In theory the musicians earplugs are supposed to attenuate the volume, leaving the tonal spectrum the same. Not the same as cotton balls or wax stuffed into the ears. In practice, I'm sure they cut some of the highs out.

Yes, this is the risk that I'm wondering about, too. I've recently played a Mason A with Weikert felt hammers, that seemed to have no tonal range at all. They had a beautiful sound at piano dynamics, but the tone remained almost exactly the same at all other dynamics, including ff. The BB in question has a far, far larger tonal range than this A, but given I am looking at putting on hammers similar to this A, I'd hate to get a piano that has even LESS of a tonal range than it currently does.

Well, to be honest, although I enjoyed playing the Walter, I'd also want softer hammers on there as well. As well, there is no substitute for a 7' bass in a piano, and I realize that all the other pianos that I've enjoyed playing have given me the same pause when I reach the lower bass notes. Most everything else sounds great down to about C1, but only this particular Mason BB has the entire bass range to A0.
My Shigeru was an absolute joy to play, as long as I didn't spend much time in the lower bass region trying to play forte.

I don't recommend prehung hammers under any circumstances.

When changing hammers you are essentially changing the design of the action.

Weather altering the design, weight, strike line, alternate boring, decisions need to be reviewed for impact and result. These are important factors and deserve deliberate attention.

My advice .. do not buy and install prehung hammers.

FWIW, I am fan of softer hammers or more specifically, cold pressed.

The volume issue can be dealt with in the same way it is dealt with in a studio setting. You won’t find many studios changing out the piano components to get the sound they want.

But you will find them adjusting the room acoustics to get a particular sound. I just completed an opera recording in West Van where the room had to be “fixed” to produce a particular sound. We did not rebuild part of the piano to get there. The piano had the right tone just too much of it….so we cut down the volume by using ways that I have previously stated. Still the piano has the horsepower …..just that it isn’t being used for that situation.

Then, once finished, the room was dismantled and the piano sounded like it did originally. If you are looking for a particular sound it is best not to limit the instrument by making it sound one way all the time. That would limit the instrument's capabilities to a particular music or genre.

As I've mentioned several times on your other threads I have no problem playing softly on my five year old BB that sits in a smallish 12' by 18' room. I don't think what you say about the dynamics of the BB are correct. In fact, this wasn't a problem on any of the BB's I tried.

The posters on this thread who said that you should be trying to find a piano you like as it sounds in the showroom, rather than buying an expensive piano and hoping a change in hammers will give you the sound you want, are correct IMO.

Well, this runs contrary to my experience. As well, every single person I've talked to that has sold these pianos, or currently sells them has confirmed that Masons are indeed louder than other pianos. I don't dispute that they can be played softly, but softly for a Mason is different than softly for an Estonia, wouldn't you agree?

They are not correct, but more prudent I'd say. My natural inclination is towards finding something I love in the showroom too, but this has been harder to do than you might think. Lots of Yamahas and lower end Kawais, and turn of the century used instruments, but not much in between around here. The rare Steinway that turns up is usually over 50K and is comparable to those sold at 30-35K in the States.

The only local piano that I almost love, save for the lowest bass notes (again!) is the Shigeru VI, but the price is now way out of my limit. At this point, even if I could afford it I'd hesitate because I sold my last Shigeru because of the same bass issue. There is no denying that the rest of the piano is superb though.
This all leads me back to the Mason. If the tech, who now cannot come tonight, but probably next week, gives the go ahead for the basic integrity of the instrument I may take the chance with it.

I'm not looking to limit the sound, but to have a wider tonal range. What made you think I wanted a limited sound?
In any case, from what I understand from the supporters of hammer change is that, indeed, changing from a hard Renner Blue, heat pressed hammer, to a softer, cold pressed hammer would allow this Mason, and perhaps many pianos with similar heat pressed hammers, to have a larger tonal palette. I understand the risks of pre-hung hammers too, but these seem to be manageable risks. That being said, I'm not completely certain I want to take that risk, and would probably look at trying to voice the current Blues as much as possible. This in combination with a great regulation job may help.
It would be much simpler if I could do this on the piano before purchase, of course.

There is a way to evaluate the dynamic capability of the Mason's sound board independently of the hammers that are on it.

I am presuming you are discussing the new hammers with this piano?

This BB clearly is that piano.

The best advice I have read on this forum is to do absolutely everything else first before doing any voicing at all.

I find it interesting I have a M&H BB in the shop we installed Renner blues on around 16 years ago.
Very smooth and wonderful tone. I am restringing the piano for the client right now.

I also have a Steinway "M" we rebuilt around the same time here for sale. We also installed the Renner Blues of that time. Also a very smooth and wonderful tone.

We stopped using the blues at one time because we found them bright from what we use to get.

Scep, they are as mellow as the two other pianos you played here, with the other hammers. And I know we voiced them back then. Surprisingly they did not get bright over time.

I am also not a fan of prehung parts, we install all our hammers in house.

Hi Rod,

Well, the new Masons are very bright out of the box. The one I'm looking at that is not at the showroom is not bright at all. I'd call it mellow but without the range I'd thought it would've had.
That being said, there is a Mason A at the showroom that, although not mellow, definitely has more warmth than the AA, BB, or CC beside it.

I'm not worried about the dynamic range. Unless we're talking about the tonal palette here? Like I mentioned, this BB can be played very softly, or quite loudly, and everything in between. But what I hear as far as colours go, they don't change with the dynamics as much as I hear on other pianos. Dynamics by themselves is not an issue.


Yes, changing hammers on the eight year old BB. Or at least trying to figure out the best way to expand the colour palette to that of other pianos.

Does anyone happen to know what effect, if any, the crown retention system has on the tonal characteristics of Mason & Hamlins?

Specifically does the tension it applies to the rim affect the reflection of higher partials and tones, compared to other pianos?

That's an interesting question. But does it affect only the higher partials or is it just one of the factors which contribute to the overall voice of a Mason? Maybe Del would add some observations.

Here is the "hype" from the M&H website.

http://masonhamlin.com/crown-retention-system/

A few points underlying the question:

1. M&H appear to have a large dynamic range but not so large a tonal range.
2. The tonal range increases dramatically with Musician's earplugs.
3. Musician's earplugs attenuate higher frequencies more.
4. Our perception of loudness of a note depends on the sound of the initial attack.
5. M&H have reportedly recently addressed a problem of treble weakness.
6. The crown retention system is the main differentiator in M&H pianos.
7. Any rim effects might well have a greater impact on shorter wavelengths.

(8) M&H also has a greater angle on the rim surface to which the soundboard is glued than many other makes.

The M&H people build a very high quality piano at a reasonable price, but the crown retention system is essentially hype. As Del and a few others have pointed out, because the soundboard is glued to the rim above its centerline, as crown is lost, the edges of the soundboard panel actually pull inward, i.e., they don't spread out and push against the rim. Additionally, because the radius of the crowning is very large, there's not much movement of the outer edges of the soundboard as the crown changes anyway. The effective way to retain crown is to use a rib crowned rather than a compression crowned soundboard.

The tension resonator, although it is not a resonator in any sense of the word, does stiffen the structure of the piano, and therefore may well have an effect on the piano's tone and perhaps even sustain in certain parts of the scale.

It would not be the first time Del was mistaken.

And this isn't the first time you've taken
an anonymous potshot at Del Fandrich. Doing so is cowardly, not to mention mean-spirited and unnecessary.

I don't get it, but I'm glad the potshots don't deter one of the greats from continuing to contribute here.

Building off this, I think someone who describes himself as a "Semipro tech" looks like an absolute moron when he criticizes such a prominent industry professional. And perhaps worse, he endangers the health of the forum by encouraging said industry professionals to stop posting, which has happened in the past. Younger techs, such as myself, need people like Del, Jim, Rod, etc. to teach us stuff, or at least serve as an inspiration for excellence; that tends to work best when old curmudgeons aren't wailing on them all the time.

I am anonymous because I do not wish to use this board for advertising. I am semi-professional because I make enough money from investing that I can do things for the good of the industry, rather than for profit.

If this statement: "As Del and a few others have pointed out, because the soundboard is glued to the rim above its centerline, as crown is lost, the edges of the soundboard panel actually pull inward, i.e., they don't spread out and push against the rim," is true, then there is no need for the soundboard to be crowned at all. The soundboard assembly of ribs and crown has negative curvature, so it is reverse crowned. (This is a simplification, of course. Those of you who are inclined towards mathematics or physics will see this, and will also note that the situation is much more complicated.)

I might also note that we have the evidence of our ears, when we compare a Steinway A-I with an old Mason & Hamlin AA, virtually identical pianos except for the rim bracing.

If you are still swayed by personalities, Gertz is on one side, Fandrich on the other. The physics has not changed in the intervening years.