Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
What's Hot!!
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Piano Tuning
How to Tune Pianos
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2017
(ad)
4th Finger Enigma Resolved!
Schumann's 4th Finger Enigma Resolved!
Who's Online Now
97 registered members (anotherscott, Bambers, alfredo capurso, beeboss, ando, 24 invisible), 1,950 guests, and 1 spider.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#1971033 - 10/09/12 10:04 PM Will this piano sound much different if hammers are voiced?  
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 65
dracaa Offline
Full Member
dracaa  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 65
I'm considering purchasing a used 1994 Kohler and Campbell 5'9" grand (skg-600s). Only thing is, quite a few of the notes above the G below middle C sound too bright for my taste when play with moderate force. They sound ok if played soft OR with the soft pedal. I have no problem with the notes below that G.

So I would like to know before buying how effective it would be to have a tech needle the hammers. Just wanting to eliminate that upper harmonic sharpness I hear.

The hammers look fairly worn to me but you be the judge: http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu259/sarta53/pianokeys_zps9ab53055.jpg

Is there much hope that those keys can be softened up to my liking?


Kohler and Campbell skg-600s 5'9 grand (newly acquired)
I'm not a tech but ambitiously learning out of necessity
since I live in the middle of nowhere and getting a tech
to come out here for minor things (that I could and want
to learn to do myself) is prohibitively expensive.
(ad 800)
PTG Journal
PTG Journal
#1971044 - 10/09/12 10:34 PM Re: Will this piano sound much different if hammers are voiced? [Re: dracaa]  
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,919
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Supply  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,919
Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Normally on a piano like this, hammer filing and voicing will make a noticeable improvement. Action cleaning and lubrication go hand in hand with that. As well, the regulation will need to be tweaked. Ask your technician how much a full service like that will cost.

#1971058 - 10/09/12 11:01 PM Re: Will this piano sound much different if hammers are voiced? [Re: Supply]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,489
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member
beethoven986  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,489
Originally Posted by Supply
Normally on a piano like this, hammer filing and voicing will make a noticeable improvement. Action cleaning and lubrication go hand in hand with that. As well, the regulation will need to be tweaked. Ask your technician how much a full service like that will cost.


Agreed!

#1971085 - 10/09/12 11:45 PM Re: Will this piano sound much different if hammers are voiced? [Re: beethoven986]  
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,652
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member
kpembrook  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,652
Michigan
Originally Posted by beethoven986
Originally Posted by Supply
Normally on a piano like this, hammer filing and voicing will make a noticeable improvement. Action cleaning and lubrication go hand in hand with that. As well, the regulation will need to be tweaked. Ask your technician how much a full service like that will cost.


Agreed!


And the improvement will not be subtle.


Keith Akins, RPT
Piano Technologist
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#1971094 - 10/09/12 11:56 PM Re: Will this piano sound much different if hammers are voiced? [Re: kpembrook]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,489
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member
beethoven986  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,489
Originally Posted by kpembrook
Originally Posted by beethoven986
Originally Posted by Supply
Normally on a piano like this, hammer filing and voicing will make a noticeable improvement. Action cleaning and lubrication go hand in hand with that. As well, the regulation will need to be tweaked. Ask your technician how much a full service like that will cost.


Agreed!


And the improvement will not be subtle.


Also agreed!

#1971125 - 10/10/12 12:48 AM Re: Will this piano sound much different if hammers are voiced? [Re: dracaa]  
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 58
michelleyh Offline
Full Member
michelleyh  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 58
Malaysia
The hammers are groovy but not too groovy. I would suggesting steaming it to soften up the hammers and then it will be less groovy. For me. filing is the last resort because it reduces the size and mass of the hammers.

You should talk to your technician. He/she will come up with something.

Also, i haven't heard it yet. So i cannot help much too.


Michelle YH Toe, LLCM
Piano Technician, CSPT
Piano Teacher
Accompanist
www.facebook.com/MichelleYHToe
#1971202 - 10/10/12 07:58 AM Re: Will this piano sound much different if hammers are voiced? [Re: dracaa]  
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Mark Cerisano Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Mark Cerisano  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
My opinion is that the hammers are grooved quite a bit and will need to be filed. Steaming can make a difference but it is temporary. Once the humidity leaves the hammers, they will be back to a bright sound. Brightness in loud playing indicates they need to be voiced, deep needling on the shoulders.


Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
#1983352 - 11/06/12 10:04 AM Re: Will this piano sound much different if hammers are voiced? [Re: Supply]  
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 65
dracaa Offline
Full Member
dracaa  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 65
Originally Posted by Supply
Normally on a piano like this, hammer filing and voicing will make a noticeable improvement. Action cleaning and lubrication go hand in hand with that. As well, the regulation will need to be tweaked. Ask your technician how much a full service like that will cost.


Could you elaborate on what parts can use "lubrication"? I have purchased this piano and the main part I think needs "lubrication" would be the hammer shank joint, since now there are about 5 hammers that have friction and don't fall as smoothly as the rest, however in another post I was advised to have the hammers repinned rather than lubricated.


Kohler and Campbell skg-600s 5'9 grand (newly acquired)
I'm not a tech but ambitiously learning out of necessity
since I live in the middle of nowhere and getting a tech
to come out here for minor things (that I could and want
to learn to do myself) is prohibitively expensive.
#1983418 - 11/06/12 01:17 PM Re: Will this piano sound much different if hammers are voiced? [Re: dracaa]  
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,919
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Supply  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,919
Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
If you have slow hammers in a piano, then usually lubrication will only be a very temporary solution. The proper way to fix this is to re-pin the hammers, as has been said.
The friction of all the parts must be as even as possible before voicing (and for proper functioning of the action in general). We attain this by a combination of lubrication of many different contact points using different lubricants, and by making sure that the flange pinning is in the correct range. This is part of a full service.

#1983431 - 11/06/12 02:14 PM Re: Will this piano sound much different if hammers are voiced? [Re: dracaa]  
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 25,426
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
BDB  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 25,426
Oakland
Back to the original question, the trouble with voicing pianos is finding someone competent to do it. If you have someone, that person can assess the piano. If you do not, what people say is possible makes no difference.


Semipro Tech
#1983485 - 11/06/12 05:06 PM Re: Will this piano sound much different if hammers are voiced? [Re: Supply]  
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,652
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member
kpembrook  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,652
Michigan
Originally Posted by Supply
If you have slow hammers in a piano, then usually lubrication will only be a very temporary solution. The proper way to fix this is to re-pin the hammers, as has been said.
The friction of all the parts must be as even as possible before voicing (and for proper functioning of the action in general). We attain this by a combination of lubrication of many different contact points using different lubricants, and by making sure that the flange pinning is in the correct range. This is part of a full service.


Hmm. My experience has been different. I find that usually a shot of Protek CLP does wonders.

Sometimes, though, it is necessary to repin.


Keith Akins, RPT
Piano Technologist
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair
#1983501 - 11/06/12 05:41 PM Re: Will this piano sound much different if hammers are voiced? [Re: dracaa]  
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,919
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Supply  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,919
Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Yes, lubrication of hammer centers can help if the centers are not too tight. The OP mentions "there are about 5 hammers that have friction and don't fall as smoothly as the rest".

In all cases of my experience, by the time a player notices that the hammers are sluggish, the flanges are too tight for lubrication in itself to be a reliable long term fix. They need to be re-pinned. And usually, if the client notices five "bad" ones, there are ten more that are marginal which also need attention.

#1983510 - 11/06/12 05:52 PM Re: Will this piano sound much different if hammers are voiced? [Re: Supply]  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,263
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Silverwood Pianos  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,263
Vancouver B. C. Canada
Originally Posted by Supply
And usually, if the client notices five "bad" ones, there are ten more that are marginal which also need attention.


Then once you get the action apart and the weight is off the whippens there could be a lot more....


Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."
#1984047 - 11/08/12 09:29 AM Re: Will this piano sound much different if hammers are voiced? [Re: dracaa]  
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 65
dracaa Offline
Full Member
dracaa  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 65
Thanks for the feedback. Ok I will remove the 5 slow hammers and take them to a tech to have them repinned.

Question: would repinning involve replacing the felt bushing as well?

Also I should mention that all 5 slow hammers are on the most commonly played keys, which are C, E, G (as the key of C is played hardest and most often).

Do hammers normally slow down through normal wear & tear this way?


Kohler and Campbell skg-600s 5'9 grand (newly acquired)
I'm not a tech but ambitiously learning out of necessity
since I live in the middle of nowhere and getting a tech
to come out here for minor things (that I could and want
to learn to do myself) is prohibitively expensive.

Moderated by  Piano World 

Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World)
our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, Digital Piano Dolly, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping* on Jansen Artist Piano Benches, Cocoweb Piano Lamps, Hidrau Hydraulic Piano Benches
(*free shipping within contiguous U.S. only)
(ad)
Pearl River & Ritmuller
Pearl River Pianos
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq 6 Out now
(ad)
Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restorations and sales
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


New Topics - Multiple Forums
Where do you rate Sauter pianos ?
by Fazioli-Yang. 10/22/17 12:24 PM
Sostenuto Pedal technique
by Colin Miles. 10/22/17 11:49 AM
Messiaen - Vingt Regards
by Eric NYC. 10/22/17 10:59 AM
Pen Pal Thread
by cmb13. 10/22/17 07:26 AM
The difference between PTG and technician association?
by Fazioli-Yang. 10/22/17 12:27 AM
Forum Statistics
Forums44
Topics182,421
Posts2,666,410
Members89,015
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Check It Out!
There's a lot more to Piano World than just the forums.
Click Here to
Explore The Rest of Piano World!!
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2017 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0