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#1970951 - 10/09/12 05:57 PM Dampp Chaser Question  
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,557
OperaTenor Offline
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OperaTenor  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2006
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Sandy Eggo, California
Okay, so after lo these many years, I'm installing my first ever system on a grand - a Petrof IV, to be specific. In the past, I've mostly seen secondary dehumidifiers installed inside the action cavity, mounted on the key stop rail.

The instructions with the new system recommend installing it externally, under the key bed.

Pro's/con's? Is what I've seen the old way, and this is the new way?

I'll call D-C tomorrow when they're open, but I thought i'd pick y'alls brains in the meantime.

PS. Is there still such a thing as a "certified" installer? I emailed them a couple of weeks ago inquiring, and never got a reply.


Last edited by OperaTenor; 10/09/12 06:39 PM.

Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
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#1970957 - 10/09/12 06:08 PM Re: Dampp Chaser Question [Re: OperaTenor]  
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Minnesota Marty Offline

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Minnesota Marty  Offline

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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 7,439
Rochester MN
The D-C installer list is right on their website. They even indicate which ones have the most experience.


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
#1970962 - 10/09/12 06:17 PM Re: Dampp Chaser Question [Re: OperaTenor]  
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beethoven986 Offline
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beethoven986  Offline
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Huh? The only systems that use two humidifiers are concert grands. The G6PS-38-SB is the system that is supposed to be installed on the Petrof IV. The one humidifier goes in between the two longest beams, the humidistat goes on the beam closest to the straight side, and the two dehumidifiers are placed at the tail, and near the end of the key bed by the belly rail. I have never seen a system installed with any component placed in the action cavity... even on installs that were done some 20 years ago.

Yes, there is still a "certified" installer program, which can be taken on their tech website.

#1970963 - 10/09/12 06:17 PM Re: Dampp Chaser Question [Re: OperaTenor]  
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Jerry Groot RPT Offline
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Jerry Groot RPT  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2007
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Grand Rapids Michigan
Yes, you can become certified or whatever their term is for it. I've not done so 'yet' but I have installed a lot of them over the years. Never inside of the piano though and never under the key-bed.

I never believed in installing them inside of the action cavity for the sake of the action and pin block but, then again, I live in Michigan where it's cold 9 out of 12 months too! smile You're in Sandy Eggo... wink Lil different weather there...



Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.
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#1970975 - 10/09/12 06:42 PM Re: Dampp Chaser Question [Re: beethoven986]  
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OperaTenor Offline
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OperaTenor  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,557
Sandy Eggo, California
Originally Posted by beethoven986
Huh? The only systems that use two humidifiers are concert grands. The G6PS-38-SB is the system that is supposed to be installed on the Petrof IV. The one humidifier goes in between the two longest beams, the humidistat goes on the beam closest to the straight side, and the two dehumidifiers are placed at the tail, and near the end of the key bed by the belly rail. I have never seen a system installed with any component placed in the action cavity... even on installs that were done some 20 years ago.

Yes, there is still a "certified" installer program, which can be taken on their tech website.


Sorry, I meant secondary DEhumidifier.

Yes, I know about the list, but they also say that they won't honor the warranty unless the installation is done by a certified installer, so I want to be one. I look at the site and check it out.



Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind
#1970976 - 10/09/12 06:43 PM Re: Dampp Chaser Question [Re: OperaTenor]  
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,557
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member
OperaTenor  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2006
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Sandy Eggo, California
I'm working on a Baldwin SF7 tomorrow that has a secondary dehumidifier installed on the key stop rail. I'll take a pic to show what I'm talking about.


Last edited by OperaTenor; 10/09/12 06:44 PM.

Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind
#1970980 - 10/09/12 06:49 PM Re: Dampp Chaser Question [Re: OperaTenor]  
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 440
James Carney Offline
Full Member
James Carney  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 440
new york city
Originally Posted by OperaTenor
Okay, so after lo these many years, I'm installing my first ever system on a grand - a Petrof IV, to be specific. In the past, I've mostly seen secondary humidifiers installed inside the action cavity, mounted on the key stop rail.

The instructions with the new system recommend installing it externally, under the key bed.

Pro's/con's? Is what I've seen the old way, and this is the new way?

I'll call D-C tomorrow when they're open, but I thought i'd pick y'alls brains in the meantime.

PS. Is there still such a thing as a "certified" installer? I emailed them a couple of weeks ago inquiring, and never got a reply.



Hi Jim,

I think this used to be very common practice, but placing a dehumidifier in the action is definitely not recommended under any circumstances; it could cause loose flanges and might possibly damage the block. I've seen lots of these "old school" installs and I always remove the rod from the action when I find them. However, if you feel that the action itself is sluggish due to high humidity, and if you feel that a standard DC system still doesn't do enough, a third rod can be placed under the keybed which might help. I have personally never found this to be necessary though. A good installation usually takes care of the whole piano.

I am certified and have installed approximately 100 systems. I highly recommend becoming certified - the online training is in-depth and covers lots of ground; it also offers lots of tips and information on wood and humidity that even veteran installers/technicians might not be aware of. I don't think you need to write them, just sign up at the website to take the training and tests.

And, unfortunately, I have found that many systems installed by others were not installed correctly. Often the humidistat is in the wrong location, which really minimizes the efficiency and effectiveness of the system. When Dampp-Chasers are installed correctly they work beautifully and help the stability of the piano immensely, especially here in NYC.


Keyboardist & Composer, Piano Technician
www.jamescarney.net
http://jamescarneypianotuning.wordpress.com/
#1970998 - 10/09/12 07:33 PM Re: Dampp Chaser Question [Re: OperaTenor]  
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,627
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Loren D  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,627
PA
First off, Dampp-Chaser does not recommend installing a dehumidifier in the action cavity, as others have pointed out.

Secondly, Dampp-Chaser honors the warranty provided the system is installed by a professional piano technician. Many installers are not certified, and those systems are still covered. I'm certified, but I installed hundreds of systems prior to certification (and prior to DC having a certification program), and those are covered.



DiGiorgi Piano Service
http://www.digiorgipiano.com
#1971021 - 10/09/12 08:39 PM Re: Dampp Chaser Question [Re: OperaTenor]  
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,557
OperaTenor Offline
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OperaTenor  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,557
Sandy Eggo, California
Thanks, guys. Now I know. smile

I've been studying the installation instructions carefully. The unit I got in for my customer's Petrof IV is a GP6S-38-SB.




Last edited by OperaTenor; 10/09/12 08:42 PM.

Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind
#1971030 - 10/09/12 08:57 PM Re: Dampp Chaser Question [Re: OperaTenor]  
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Jerry Groot RPT  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828
Grand Rapids Michigan
Dampp Chaser has pics and all sorts of things readily available to technicians for anything that we need to know on these units along with what DC unit is recommended for what piano etc. You're a tech so register with their site and use that information. It's good info.

I, like Loren, have installed hundreds, probably thousands of them in the past 40 years. They've changed a lot over the past 15 years or so too, for the better in some things, worse in others, depends on what one likes, I think.

I don't install as many as I used too, only for the reason that people start out (customers) with great intentions but after a few months lost interest and then quit filling them up and taking proper care of it, leave the cord unplugged and then whine about the piano not staying in tune again... That gets OLD REALLY REALLY FAST... Explain it over and over and over and................ frown


Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.
#1971059 - 10/09/12 10:02 PM Re: Dampp Chaser Question [Re: OperaTenor]  
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,557
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member
OperaTenor  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,557
Sandy Eggo, California
I'm taking it I can't take the certification course on the site until D-C gives me a login?



Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind
#1971064 - 10/09/12 10:09 PM Re: Dampp Chaser Question [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,489
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member
beethoven986  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,489
Originally Posted by Jerry Groot RPT
leave the cord unplugged and then whine about the piano not staying in tune again... That gets OLD REALLY REALLY FAST... Explain it over and over and over and................ frown


The school I went to actually had an unplug alarm for all its classroom pianos and concert grands. Annoying, but effective.

#1971068 - 10/09/12 10:19 PM Re: Dampp Chaser Question [Re: beethoven986]  
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,665
kpembrook Online content
1000 Post Club Member
kpembrook  Online Content
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,665
Michigan
Originally Posted by beethoven986

The school I went to actually had an unplug alarm for all its classroom pianos and concert grands. Annoying, but effective.


Cool! Tell us more!


Keith Akins, RPT
Piano Technologist
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair
#1971081 - 10/09/12 10:41 PM Re: Dampp Chaser Question [Re: kpembrook]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,489
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member
beethoven986  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,489
Originally Posted by kpembrook
Originally Posted by beethoven986

The school I went to actually had an unplug alarm for all its classroom pianos and concert grands. Annoying, but effective.


Cool! Tell us more!


Unfortunately, I don't have any technical info that I can share... I know zilch about electronics. But, they were battery operated, I believe, and quite loud.

#1971095 - 10/09/12 10:57 PM Re: Dampp Chaser Question [Re: OperaTenor]  
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,604
Dave B Offline
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Dave B  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,604
Philadelphia area
Unplugged alarm sounds like something found in a hospital.


"Imagine it in all its primatic colorings, its counterpart in our souls - our souls that are great pianos whose strings, of honey and of steel, the divisions of the rainbow set twanging, loosing on the air great novels of adventure!" - William Carlos Williams
#1971193 - 10/10/12 06:29 AM Re: Dampp Chaser Question [Re: OperaTenor]  
Joined: Jun 2010
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Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Loren D  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,627
PA
Originally Posted by OperaTenor
I'm taking it I can't take the certification course on the site until D-C gives me a login?



Correct. Either email them or give them a call, and they'll set you up. As for the technician's only section of the site, that requires a login and password too. Give them a call and they'll get you on track. smile


DiGiorgi Piano Service
http://www.digiorgipiano.com
#1971228 - 10/10/12 08:35 AM Re: Dampp Chaser Question [Re: OperaTenor]  
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,265
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Mark R.  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,265
Pretoria, South Africa
Keith,

I'm not sure whether one could buy unplug alarms off the shelf, but such a thing would be quite easy to make, using an AC mini-relay of the "normally closed" type, wired to the same plug as the Dampp-Chaser. As long as the unit is plugged in, the relay would be open, but when the plug is pulled, it would close (i.e. create a connection), and this could then be used to trigger a battery-operated siren. Pretty fail-safe, at least as long as the battery lasts...

I've made a similar unit to trigger certain events in my household when there is a power failure. The components cost around $25 in an electronics shop.


Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.
#1971242 - 10/10/12 09:21 AM Re: Dampp Chaser Question [Re: OperaTenor]  
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RonTuner Offline
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RonTuner  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2004
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Chicagoland
Does it get dry in Sandy Eggo? Like Jer, I've had some frustration with owners not keeping the system plugged in or filled - especially in institutional settings...

I find that installing a half system has been a good choice for those pianos that go crazy over the summer, but the owners don't want to mess with filling. (humidistat and drying bar(s)) If excess humidity is the problem, a half system may suit you and your clients better!

Don't forget the value of a bottom cover if the piano won't stabilize.

Ron Koval


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