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Czerny Hanon, scales, and arpeggios are the foundation to better playing...especially for 4th and 5th finger strength and control as well as an overall smoothness in playing.

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Originally Posted by atinm
After all, if one wants to improve at Beethoven, one should practice Beethoven. Practicing Hanon will make one better at playing Hanon, but I don't think that is anyone's goal when they set themselves the Hanon penance.


While I agree that there are plenty of reasons not to do Hanon (and plenty reasons why you should do Hanon), this is the most absurd one you often see cited.

Learning anything at the piano will make you better, so long as it's done mindfully and with attention to correct production (technique, musicality, etc). I didn't learn any Beethoven before I learned Beethoven, but I did learn Clementi, and he did indeed help me improve my Beethoven later on.


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Originally Posted by kayvee
Originally Posted by atinm
After all, if one wants to improve at Beethoven, one should practice Beethoven. Practicing Hanon will make one better at playing Hanon, but I don't think that is anyone's goal when they set themselves the Hanon penance.


While I agree that there are plenty of reasons not to do Hanon (and plenty reasons why you should do Hanon), this is the most absurd one you often see cited.


The point is that most people do Hanon because they think it will help their playing of music when it is actually playing music that will help one's music. Doing scales, arpeggios etc is good because one sees those in music, and so those skills transfer while Hanon isn't because one does not see Hanon exercises in music. Besides, I'm sure your practicing Beethoven was really what made your Beethoven better, while practicing Clementi helped your Clementi. Practicing Clementi helped your music playing, and that is the only point that I am making - it is better to play music than waste time on non-musical exercises that mostly involve pressing keys. After all, it isn't the pressing of keys that makes music, it's the putting together, the coordination of the appropriate order with the appropriate force and timing of the pressing of keys that makes music . . .

Last edited by atinm; 10/09/12 08:58 AM.
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Originally Posted by Mark...
Czerny Hanon, scales, and arpeggios are the foundation to better playing...especially for 4th and 5th finger strength and control as well as an overall smoothness in playing.


Psychology research as well as anatomical research in the 20th century (Otto Orthmann, Arnold Schultz, plus people like Abby Whiteside, Taubman etc) basically debunked the whole 4th/5th finger strength thing - what is important for playing piano is coordination and musical training. Training one gets by playing music and what one sees in music (e.g. scales, arpeggios). Heck, even Beethoven preferred that his nephew learn Clementi rather than Czerny from Czerny (Hanon didn't exist yet but I'm sure Beethoven would have hated Hanon too!). When one's time is short like I am assuming it is here on "Adult Beginner's Forum", practicing from the repertoire is much better than doing boring, repetitive exercises like Hanon. And "Czerny was a mean man who hated children and therefore only wrote studies" - Egon Petri ;-)

Please, read some newer research on piano technique. The whole Czerny, Hanon thing has become like a religion, e.g. "Sergei Rachmaninoff said he did only Hanon and Czerny in the Russian School" - without considering that maybe it was in spite of this that he became what he became.

"Famous Pianists and their technique" by Reginald Gerig is a very good survey of piano technique from Bach down to us. A quicker read is "The Pianist's Problems" by William Newman - it basically condenses the same thing - and both are good surveys of piano technique that were written in the mid 20th century when people actually knew some anatomy, psychology, and neurology. Both show that piano technique has moved on past the whole finger strengthening, 4th/5th finger independence Czerny/Hanon school of thought.


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The overwhelming contemporary feeling is anti-Hanon. Anti-Hanon teachers, in their effort to please every student and not wanting to lose the money they bring in, will sometimes allow that student (or the parents of that student) to insist on doing these exercises. I do not do this, preferring to explain the reasons why I don't teach Hanon. I've just written an in-depth blog post about the alternatives to Hanon and the exercises and études around that ARE useful and musically rewarding. It's here.

Like the contributors above, I'd suggest focusing your efforts towards other more musical pieces. The 'Joy of...' series by Denes Agay is a particularly good one for beginners.

Alternatives using the name of 'Study' or 'Etude' include Clementi's Gradus ad Parnassum, Chopin's Etudes and Bartok's Mikrokosmos, all of which are much more exciting to learn. Bartok is great for beginners (the early books), while Chopin and Clementi are more advanced, though played slowly they are also quite suitable for those with 2-3 years of playing under their belt.

All the best

Jack



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"...The whole Czerny, Hanon thing has become like a religion..."

Well, that's very sweeping. I wouldn't suggest that the devil will get you if you don't do your Hanon, or Czerny, or whatever else you do to warm up. I would suggest that playing the piano has its roots partly within how the physical body works, and how the brain learns. If you don't warm the body up somehow, you risk injury--- this is true across the spectrum of bodily activities, and it's a very common experience. Balanced and regular physical conditioning extends capabilities and prevents injuries.

The mind remembers best, and fastest, when it is reminded regularly. Hanon nor Czerny is neither a self-sufficient piano method, but more like a brisk overview of some of the high points. But hey, if you hate them, leave them alone! Do you need company that badly? I don't think every student is in a position to start the day with the Chopin Etudes or the Bach Inventions. I have read both the books you mentioned atimn--- and don't believe either supports what you assert.


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"...The whole Czerny, Hanon thing has become like a religion..."


As has the whole anti-Hanon, Czerny thing.


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Originally Posted by Jeff Clef
"...The whole Czerny, Hanon thing has become like a religion..."

I have read both the books you mentioned atimn--- and don't believe either supports what you assert.


While I agree with your style of teaching (focusing more on musical studies than just the pressing of keys a'la Hanon), I have to agree to disagree about the reading of the books I mentioned (I still encourage people interested in piano technique to read them regardless of what they say or do not say about Hanon) and will have to find the chapter/verse when I get home. From what I remember, the last chapter of "Famous Pianists and their technique" talks about the 20th century research that exposed the whole finger exercises to help piano playing thing that Hanon is for (plus other things like the arm weight technique etc). And "The Pianist's Problems" specifically has a put down of Hanon for its very unmusical-ness while talking about technique.

*But* I loved your blog post. Thank you. You made the point that I intended to make in a much better way.

It is different if what you're talking about is finger "warm-up" - do whatever works. But I don't think that warm-up exercises is what the OP was looking for when the question was asked.

Last edited by atinm; 10/09/12 12:18 PM.
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Originally Posted by rocket88
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"...The whole Czerny, Hanon thing has become like a religion..."


As has the whole anti-Hanon, Czerny thing.


Sorry - I shall desist. The OP got the point about asking the teacher about this. The rest is, as we agree, religion.

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Practice anything that needs fixing. Scale practice will mess up the smooth flow of all 5 fingers. Hannon can even it out. It's not necessarily about finger strength, but the eveness of the pressure. Once demoed a software program that showed the relative action of the individual digits; it always seem to show that the thumb strkes with the most force.

The Forward in the Book of Hannon is the coolest: "The playing of the piano is so commonplace today that it takes at least 8 years of practice before even a simple piece can be performed with any.." (sic) -Well, something like that..

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Regardless of the anti Hannon Czerny scale crowd, as someone who has used these tools for an extended time period, I am pleased with the results.

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Originally Posted by Mark...
Regardless of the anti Hannon Czerny scale crowd, as someone who has used these tools for an extended time period, I am pleased with the results.


That's good to know. I spoke with my local teacher today about Hanon exercises and she said that she thinks they are beneficial but wants to monitor my use of the exercises in order to prevent hand injury.


Virginia

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Originally Posted by Tech 5
Originally Posted by Mark...
Regardless of the anti Hannon Czerny scale crowd, as someone who has used these tools for an extended time period, I am pleased with the results.


That's good to know. I spoke with my local teacher today about Hanon exercises and she said that she thinks they are beneficial but wants to monitor my use of the exercises in order to prevent hand injury.


Good advise...good luck and tell us your experience over time...

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