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What is a "Yamaha Products Manager?" Sound an awful lot like piano salesman to me.

Okay, sock… your comment is a sarcastic jab at Ken Knapp. You are treading on thin ice here… you haven’t been around much lately, but you come in here and attempt to discredit Ken in some way. Well, as we say here in the south, it ain’t gonna work…

Yes, Ken works in the piano/organ business… so what? I know of no one on this forum, or in real life who has more character and integrity than Ken Knapp…

Rick

This is a strange, unsettling, thread. I guess I am not a real person according to the first post? I am not a tech, tuner, piano manufacturer, store owner, salesman, or whatever. Just a piano addict and I come to this site every day because it interests me a lot. I have some experience with Steinway, the pianos, and the stores. I like the pianos a lot, but I bought a Mason-Hamlin. Why? I liked it a lot and the prices on Steinways were impossible for me. It's really that simple. The local Steinway dealer was very nice and his pianos were great. Just too much money. I had to buy a used Mason-Hamlin to get into a price range I could live with, but a similar aged Steinway would have still been way over my budget. Not sure why Steinway doesn't give a little more discount. I truly believe the Mason-Hamlin is just as well built and maybe even better. I know Steinway believes itself to be in a higher league than other pianos and I think, if you are a manufacturer with a long history of research and design patents, you are expected to feel that way, but I imagine most top tier companies feel the same way. Bechstein, Bosie, etc. must feel they are the best at what they do, too. There is room in the world for lots of different brands. The accusations that PW is not made up of real people interested in sharing piano information is ridiculous. Any site may have a few phonies, but I have learned much reading the posts here and on the technicians threads, as well as tips on performing on the other forums. I think PW is a great service to the piano community.

The first post quoted an article from a Steinway dealer's website. I don't think it's meant to be he the actual opinion of the person starting this thread. The majority of non dealer posters at PW don't use their real names so I wouldn't worry about not being a real person.

That being said I'm not sure about why the thread was started to begin with. I think it's obvious that most PW posters wouldn't agree with what was posted on the Steinway dealer's site. Since the thread was started by a dealer, it appears to me as if the thread is an example of one dealer starting a thread to bad mouth another dealer or company.

CL49,

Do you realize that the first posting, from Nick Mauel, was a quote from a Steinway dealership putting all of us at Piano World down? It was nothing more than truly embarrassing verbage from a dealer with a bad case of sour grapes. Obviously this site carries some weight, and notice, within the piano industry or that particular dealership wouldn't feel so compelled to lash out.

As a very proud owner of three Steinways, I do observe however, that "Steinway bashing" seems to be very much in fashion in this particular forum.

PLU - Seems we were typing at the same time.

Steinway as a company makes fine instruments and has much to be proud of. Where Steinway goes nuts is when it comes to their competition. When Steinway dismisses some of the oldest most respected brands in the world they lose credibility. For non-musicians that's okay, they know the Steinway name and nothing else. That's a testament to Steinway's marketing prowess. However, when pianists play other instruments they realize there're many fine brands out there and ultimately the bad mouthing reflects badly on the company that seems to do it the most, Steinway.

In this case all the Arizona Steinway dealer has accomplished is to advertise the Piano World site on his own web page. Anyone coming here from that site reading this thread would realize the folly of those words. I don't understand why some business people do that. In general I believe there's a lot of respect for Steinway here, after all they do make a great piano (just not always). What that dealer refers to as bashing is just observations of reality. Has Steinway addressed their QC problems from a few years ago? I believe so, but anyone shopping and playing instruments will realize that there are brands that offer far better value, but they're not Steinways.

Marty, I think the forum reflects the same opinion of Steinway as I hold personally. Steinway is a wonderful piano. Especially the model "D". Problems arise with their marketing tactics and with postings like the perfect example presented at the start of this thread.

As a regular visitor to Piano World, I find the statement offensive and feel it should be removed.

How good is the advice from PianoWorld members?

I get all my medical advice here. They are GREAT.

Forrest

A few people disagree with you:

Mr. Chandler,

Please explain what you mean by value? Is that based only on the cost of a new instrument?

Here is a direct comparison of two great builders, in the same size of 5'-7", both polished ebony, and based solely on the published MSRP and SMP. These are the only upper level builders who have a direct comparison. There are certainly other builders for comparison, but the sizes vary, so that becomes an apples to oranges comparison. I agree that some of those are better "cost value" and others are considerably more expensive.

Steinway & Sons - $65,700
Steingraeber & Sohne - $93,382

Which holds the greater "value?" That is a decision which can only be made by an individual pianist based on personal preferences.

Individual dealers aside, the "official" websites of Steinway and Steingraeber make no reference, by name, to any other builder. That holds true for all of the great manufacturers. Do they all proclaim their product to be the finest? Of course they do. They all market their pianos to their own advantage.

I consider your statement to be another blanket swipe against Steinway as is evidenced so often in the Piano Forum.

Marty

The question really is, however - what is the actual selling price or "street" price of the pianos.

I have a good idea, and the differential is, shall we say, much smaller in actual fact than appears from the figures stated above.

And I can also tell you that, IMVHO - I would take the Steingraeber 100 times over a Steinway "M".

Absolutely no comparison - again IMHO.

There must be tens of thousands of posts at PW where people have expressed their opinion about different pianos and one part of the equation that has been discussed many times is value. How was Chandler's post different from any of those others posts?

Isn't it obvious that "value", for at least 99% of those using that word, is always related to price? Doesn't virtually everyone take it to mean how much you get for what you pay?

Finally, it's easy to make other comparisons with a Steinway M and when the pianos are a different size it's no harder to compare their value. For example a Mason BB has an SMP slightly less than a Steinway M and an actual selling price around 20K than a Steinway M.

My local Steinway dealer did exactly what my local Yamaha dealer and my local Kawai dealer did.....that is, he made every attempt to trash-talk the competition, with both innuendo and mis-statement of fact. Indeed, that was the case with all but a handful of the dealers (I should say the salesperson representing the store at that time) that I encountered during a six month multi-city, multi-state search.

After a while I was actually glad when the trash talking started, because then I could tune out and move on to a different seller. Why anyone whould want to do business with such people is beyond me.

In the end I believe the market will reward the honest straight shooters, and people like the quoted dealer in the OP will get just what they deserve....no customers.

I addressed Mr. Chandler directly about his specific usage.

The results were predictable. More sniping at Steinway and the countering of information stated by me based on published information. Absolutely nothing I said was disparaging of any other manufacturer or made in any comparison other than cost.

My pianos hold more value to me than do other brands and the values are not based on cost analysis. Do I respect and enjoy playing the great instruments of other builders? I most certainly do. What I don't do is dismiss them out of hand.

I need to jump in here, speaking as a representative of Piano Buyer.

Using MSRP and SMP to compare prices or values is a valid approach EXCEPT in the case of Steinway. As Larry points out, In most cases, discounts from the Suggested Maximum Price range from 10 to 30 percent... Important exception: Discounts on Steinway pianos generally range from 0 to 10 percent.
http://www.pianobuyer.com/fall12/196.html

So the selling price of a Steinway pianos with the same SMP would be considerably higher. In fact, in the example Marty noted the two pianos might well sell at the same price.

Steve Cohen,

But, as I pointed out, Steingraeber has an SMP exactly the same as the MSRP. Does not the same logic apply as in Steinway? The dealer here doesn't offer much in the way of discounts on the Steingraebers as they do on the other brands they carry.

As far as I know, the only manufacturer that is able to maintain discounts of only 0%-10% off SMP is Steinway.

Carey, you are probably right about all of this. I was wondering why they'd be doing that all of the time. Before they moved to their previous digs on Acoma they were in a shop on Chapparal (sp.), before that they were in a big round building somewhere in Phoenix, I don't remember where exactly. BTW, that big round building is where I got to play one of Horowitz's pianos for a few minutes. I don't recall if each time they were the same people or not. I'm still on their email list and have seen a few nice free concerts there at the shop. They also gave me a copy of "Note by Note: etc." on DVD. Like I said, they were nice people, just don't mention another brand in front of them.

I'm on the e-mail list as well. And yes, they're nice people.