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Excellent writeup PWATL. Appreciate that.
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Thanks for an indeed consistent and elaborate post on the different keyboard technologies in various Roland models. What I find particularly interesting, is that Roland implemented their Tri-Sensor technology in not only PHA III, but also in Ivory Feel-G and Ivory Feel-S. In the german piano prospect this technology is also referred to as "PHA Ivory feel-G" (and S). (What distinguishes the Feel-G from the Feel-S is still a mystery to me.) The slightly spongy bottoming (when the key is fully pressed down), is also something I noticed as a difference, compared to PHA III and Yamaha's GH action. Is this caused by thicker underlying dampening felt in the Ivory Feel-G keyboards? It wasn't disturbing, just a bit unexpected, compared to the other actions I refer to above. Cheers! Wow. I'm walking in a little late, so I hope this is well received. AFAIK, the Ivory Feel-G is not connected to the previous alpha [PHA (alpha) II] action. It seems to be a completely new action design conforming primarily to the weight/cost restrictions necessary for smaller model Rolands. The progression of compact, lightweight models seems to be the only connection (RP-201 had alpha, RP-301 now has Ivory Feel-G; FP-4 had alpha, FP-4F has Feel-G, etc). The weight of these models in some cases actually went up a pound or two and the feel is ... almost opposite those with alpha.
As jhm observed, the consoles with Ivory Feel-G feel better than the portables with the same spec. Don't know why, but it is not a subtle thing. I don't have a lot of affection for the actions in the FP-4F or RD-300NX, but I do like the F120 or RP301 action. Not every customer chooses them, but in our store, when people vote with their dollars, many are choosing those Rolands over the competitive models and the action is listed as one of the strengths.
PHA II directly progressed into PHA III with the help of 3rd sensor. The PHA III seems to have several nearly identical forms that can usually only be compared side by side and even then with mixed observations. If you have the money, this is the way to go with Roland.
There are a few models still sold with PHA II (w/escapement) but I'd agree they are reaching their sell-by date simply because Roland's product cycle is faster than other makers over the last 5-6 years. For 98% of players, the 2 sensor version offers 0% limitations on what they perform and, if not side by side, offers no significant discernible weakness vs. the PHA III.
IMO, the Ivory Feel-G (in the console models) is the best of the low-mass actions (comparing previous Casios, Yamaha GHS, recent Fatar, previous alpha and a couple of really awful off-brands I've played). It's touch weight is medium, the ivory touch is pleasant, the bottom is soft (not my favorite but cuts down on "thump"), the repetition is quick, the connection to the sound is still quite good, the "escapement" feel is minimal (fine by me). It could use more inertia mid-stroke that the heavyweights benefit from. I think it is good enough to compete with the higher-mass GH in Yamaha's Arius line. From there, the Roland sometimes wins for other features.
I think the PHA III is better in all areas...and should be because it is less restricted by weight/price considerations. I don't mind the thump because I prefer the firm bottom...real keys and key felts don't squish like a sponge.
Casio's new action is another low-mass action. I don't know yet where to rate it compared to the Ivory Feel-G as I see some positives and negatives when comparing to the higher-dollar Rolands.
I hope that answers more of the OP's question.
Roland F-120 DP, AKG K240 MkII HP
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Calling the German Roland hotline 3 month ago, I was told, that the keyboards "S" are no more found on new instruments, but the available ones would be now "G", "PHA-II" and "PHA-III". Sometimes the words "Ivory Feel" are somewhere added in the comercials to point out that they would have that 'sweat removing' surface finish. I tested G, PHA-II and PHA-III, and my feeling was that there is a clear difference between them, from G to PHA-II to PHA-III step by step acting less wobbly and feeling heavier weighted.
"Ivory Feel" only describes the surface of the keys. The "-S" and "-G" and "PHA-II" and "PHA-III" behind it actually refers to the mechanical key technology. In the detailed specs on the Roland pages you will even find to which extend the electronic (number of sensors) / software (4 dynamic steps or up to 100 dynamic steps) modulated responsiveness is then implemented. They mention i.e. for different PHA-III featured instruments (HP-505 and HP-507), that differently fine tuneable software reaction is connected to the PHA-III mechanics (4 step or 100 step dynamics resolution).
[edited: same content, but better structured]
Last edited by Marco M; 10/03/12 04:23 AM.
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... because it is less restricted by weight/price considerations. I don't mind the thump because I prefer the firm bottom...real keys and key felts don't squish like a sponge.
I hope that answers more of the OP's question. I´ve certainly noticed that some DP and acoustic piano actions have more of a squish than a positive thump at the bottom of the key-strike than others, and Kawai´s key action (DP and acoustic) is more squishy than most. It´s all down to personal preferences. Of all the acoustic grands I´ve played, my V-Piano´s PHA-III is closest to a new Grotrian-Steinweg (225 size, I think it was) that I played in a showroom once. If it weren´t for the sound (the Grotrian is more trebly and has less bass than the settings I use on my V), I could have sworn I was playing on my V-Piano if I closed my eyes. Fazioli (F278) is a lot less squishy than Shigeru Kawai; Steinway D - at least the ones I´ve played - slightly more squishy than Fazioli, but still a long way from S.Kawai´s softness. Of course all those grands I played were brand new; I´d guess that the more squishy actions will ´harden´over time, but maybe a piano technician will correct me on that.
If music be the food of love, play on!
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Yes, thanks PianoWorksATL for your detailed explanation. In particular, for clarifying that PHA II and PHA III are mechanically similar except for the third sensor whereas Ivory Feel G has a different, lower mass mechanism which does however feel different on different models (eg RD300NX vs F120). What I find particularly interesting, is that Roland implemented their Tri-Sensor technology in not only PHA III, but also in Ivory Feel-G.... Where is this actually specified?....I couldn't find this information. (What distinguishes the Feel-G from the Feel-S is still a mystery to me.) S-Feel is associated with PHA III in Roland's own specifications. This is how they describe the FP7-f at Roland.com: Newly developed PHA III Ivory Feel-S Keyboard with EscapementWhereas G- Feel is not, as far as I can see, associated with PHA II or PHA III.
Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI
Reaper / Native Instruments K9 ult / ESQL MOR2 Symph Orchestra & Choirs / Lucato & Parravicini , trumpets & saxes / Garritan CFX lite / Production Voices C7 & Steinway D compact
Focusrite Saffire 24 / W7, i7 4770, 16GB / MXL V67g / Yamaha HS7s / HD598
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Didn't you look at the links I posted a couple posts up in the thread? http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/827/ivorya.jpg/Cheers! Yes, thanks PianoWorksATL for your detailed explanation. In particular, for clarifying that PHA II and PHA III are mechanically similar except for the third sensor whereas Ivory Feel G has a different, lower mass mechanism which does however feel different on different models (eg RD300NX vs F120). What I find particularly interesting, is that Roland implemented their Tri-Sensor technology in not only PHA III, but also in Ivory Feel-G.... Where is this actually specified?....I couldn't find this information. (What distinguishes the Feel-G from the Feel-S is still a mystery to me.) S-Feel is associated with PHA III in Roland's own specifications. This is how they describe the FP7-f at Roland.com: Newly developed PHA III Ivory Feel-S Keyboard with EscapementWhereas G- Feel is not, as far as I can see, associated with PHA II or PHA III.
Roland F-120 DP, AKG K240 MkII HP
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I believe Ivory Feel-G has a third sensor because it behaves as if it does. I have one remaining model with a PHA II w/escapement action, and the primary characteristic of the 3rd sensor is the reset point for repetition. On the PHA II, the key has to return to about 80% before it can be restruck for sound. In the PHA III and Ivory Feel-G, the reset point is about 50% - 60%.
I think Marco's comments only serve to indicate that Roland would be well served to make a visual chart of their actions and the intended distinctions.
The Ivory Feel-S is the newest name for certain PHA III actions. So far, the only visual difference I can see is 1-piece keys in the S vs. 2-piece in the non-S (the sides of the keys are colored to look more like wood tone). There may be more settings available for the non-S actions, but now I'm speculating.
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Great interesting communication here to get rid about the differences in the Roland actions. What I don't understand is the remark of Marco M on the S action, which will not appear in the new models and then toddy's remark on that the S is a new development. Even if I look into some new models like the DP 90, the ivory feel s is implemented. So it seems still some used action in the latest models. However I never can find it out whether the ivory feel s and the PHA III are the same. Nevertheless I understand that here in the forum it is agreed that PHAIII and S are different type of actions. Would be great if some Roland technician could join the discussion.
On the more practical side, my experience is up to now only on some short exercises on the V grand, the AG of Yamaha and the Nu1 and some others which I didn't remember. (At home I have an Yamaha acoustic Grand). Unfortunately there is no good DP dealer close to where I live, so I didn't have really a good experience, but during the short exercise PHA III gave the most easy feeling on the keys, while Yamaha Avant Grand was more heavier, but I liked it as well. The NU1 keys appeared to me, when I played it the first time more easy then the AGs, two weeks later more heavy then the AGs. Relative to the NU1 action the difference between the AGs and the PHAIII on the V was not really big, however the NU1 was quit different. The NU1 action made some more fun on the keys, compared to the two others, but that might be some subjective impression, since I learned for many years on an upright and NU1 is an upright action. Would be nice to hear also from others about their experience with PHA III, S and G, compared to other brands. bennevis gave already a good example. Thanks !
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I did look at the links, but I have to confess I didn't read the bit about three sensors (my German is very poor indeed)...my mistake. So yes, that's pretty clear. Thanks for putting me right.
Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI
Reaper / Native Instruments K9 ult / ESQL MOR2 Symph Orchestra & Choirs / Lucato & Parravicini , trumpets & saxes / Garritan CFX lite / Production Voices C7 & Steinway D compact
Focusrite Saffire 24 / W7, i7 4770, 16GB / MXL V67g / Yamaha HS7s / HD598
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....another interesting point is that the photo of Ivory Feel G that jhm posted: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/827/ivorya.jpg/...seems remarkably similar to the photos of PHA III with escapement: http://timtopham.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/pha3.jpgThere are several pictures of PHAIII (and PHA II) which are all pretty similar or the very same as this sample here from Tim Topham's site.
Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI
Reaper / Native Instruments K9 ult / ESQL MOR2 Symph Orchestra & Choirs / Lucato & Parravicini , trumpets & saxes / Garritan CFX lite / Production Voices C7 & Steinway D compact
Focusrite Saffire 24 / W7, i7 4770, 16GB / MXL V67g / Yamaha HS7s / HD598
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Nevertheless I understand that here in the forum it is agreed that PHAIII and S are different type of actions No, this is not my larger point. Ivory Feel-S is a PHA III action. Ivory Feel-G is not. There is simply more than one configuration for the PHA III action. Not so obvious is how they differ.
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Roland F-120 DP, AKG K240 MkII HP
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@PianoWorksATL: looks that you are right. When I read this "http://www.rolandmusik.de/downloads/prospekte/Digital_Pianos_mit_Stil.pdf " and the technical detail description of the german website for some of the Pianos, it looks that there is a PHA III at high level pianos PHA III Ivory S on medium level pianos and a Ivory G on the cheaper pianos The G is not refered as to a PHA III, nevertheless from somewhere I've got this impressison, may be from the description that G is optimized for light weight and the fact that PHA stands for piano hammer action and the III for 3 sensors (I hope thats true). For jhm's answer "it's on page 30 in the catalogue": This page doesn't indicate the G and even the S as a PHAIII action. The S is refered to a PHAIII in some German Website description, e.g. http://www.rolandmusik.de/produkte/FP-7F/index.php.Regards
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one more remark to this discussion: As long we do not know what are the mechanical differences for the different actions we are in danger to discuss about naming conventions. The only practical sense is to differentiate from experience based on exercises with the different actions. This has been reported to some extend already, but it seems that the interaction between acoustical instrument and mechanical action behavior puts in addition a factor that make the comparison not very unique. So I would appreciate some mechanical details on the differences from Roland to see what was the design target for the different actions and what is its mechanical compilation.
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I'm not quite following you. No one so far, has stated that the Ivory Feel-G should be equal to PHA III. What is discussed however, is that Ivory Feel-G, Ivory Feel-S and PHA III all have three sensors, which is referred to as the "Tri-Sensor Technology" in the german prospect. @PianoWorksATL: looks that you are right. When I read this "http://www.rolandmusik.de/downloads/prospekte/Digital_Pianos_mit_Stil.pdf " and the technical detail description of the german website for some of the Pianos, it looks that there is a PHA III at high level pianos PHA III Ivory S on medium level pianos and a Ivory G on the cheaper pianos The G is not refered as to a PHA III, nevertheless from somewhere I've got this impressison, may be from the description that G is optimized for light weight and the fact that PHA stands for piano hammer action and the III for 3 sensors (I hope thats true). For jhm's answer "it's on page 30 in the catalogue": This page doesn't indicate the G and even the S as a PHAIII action. The S is refered to a PHAIII in some German Website description, e.g. http://www.rolandmusik.de/produkte/FP-7F/index.php.Regards
Roland F-120 DP, AKG K240 MkII HP
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It seems to me that neither 'PHA', which means 'progressive hammer action' or 'III' which refers to the three sensors, is any guarantee of quality. These are after all just basic descriptions of the design of the keyboard. And it has frequently been observed in this forum that 'progressive' or 'graded' hammer feature is good to have, but not essential (Yamaha's CP5 doesn't have it, and that's one of the most highly regarded keyboards there is). And the three sensor system is also desirable and, for some, important. But it doesn't actually have any bearing on the tactile quality of the keyboard.
So any keyboard with 3 sensors and differently weighted keys, top to bottom, could technically, and 'honestly', be called PHA III. The problem is, that name (which may or may not be protected as a trade mark) is associated with Roland's best piano keyboard which has a high reputation - loved by some, not much liked by others (as is the case with Yamaha's and Kawai's equivalent products).
The real mystery is why Roland designate some keyboards PHA III S- Feel and others just PHA III. And why the photos of the Ivory Feel G keyboard mechanism (generally considered a lower mass compromise, to save on weight and price) is almost identical to the photo of the PHA III keyboard mechanism.
Curious.
Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI
Reaper / Native Instruments K9 ult / ESQL MOR2 Symph Orchestra & Choirs / Lucato & Parravicini , trumpets & saxes / Garritan CFX lite / Production Voices C7 & Steinway D compact
Focusrite Saffire 24 / W7, i7 4770, 16GB / MXL V67g / Yamaha HS7s / HD598
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Tomorrow I really have to get hold of someone at Roland, to surely elaborate on this subject. If I'm successful I will post my findings here. This is the only thing found on Roland's website so far, the rest is more or less marketing stuff. http://www.roland.com/products/en/exp/PH_Action_Keyboard.html
Last edited by jhm; 10/03/12 05:57 PM. Reason: Typo
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The real mystery is why Roland designate some keyboards PHA III S- Feel and others just PHA III. There really is no mystery. The "S-feel" is the slightly cheaper of the two PHAIII versions. Without the fake wood look, and with a smoother top surface on the white keys. I have played both, and they feel pretty much the same mechanically. And why the photos of the Ivory Feel G keyboard mechanism (generally considered a lower mass compromise, to save on weight and price) is almost identical to the photo of the PHA III keyboard mechanism.
Curious. They feel very different when you play them, that's all that matters, isn't it?
Roland RD-700NX // Casio PX-5S // Galaxy Vintage D
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They feel very different when you play them, that's all that matters, isn't it? Yes - I was just about to say something similar, but you got there first. Actually I'm perfectly happy with PHA II - it's firm, feels authentic enough and yet is not as heavy (leaden even) as some other DP keyboards. And it is way better than nearly all acoustic uprights I've ever played. So this is all idle gossip, really....or academic curiosity  .
Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI
Reaper / Native Instruments K9 ult / ESQL MOR2 Symph Orchestra & Choirs / Lucato & Parravicini , trumpets & saxes / Garritan CFX lite / Production Voices C7 & Steinway D compact
Focusrite Saffire 24 / W7, i7 4770, 16GB / MXL V67g / Yamaha HS7s / HD598
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So this is all idle gossip, really....or academic curiosity . Well, it's a bit more than that. People always come by here asking for purchasing advice and we'd hate to give them advice like "well, these two have the same action, so you should only consider..." when, in fact, the two actions just have the same name but differ in some important respect. Several times basic things come up like people feeling that RD700NX keys feel different than those of the FP7F, or that the V-Piano keys feel different from both. It would be great to know if that is just in our heads.
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