Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Question about the business end from a new tuner.

What everyone here has said about charging too little is spot on.

I've learned that i either charge my retail rate, or I do it pro bono(and make sure they know the retail value of what they're getting) - nothing in between.

Some tunings are not worth the retail rate. Why should a seasoned veteran charge the same as someone with minimal experience, whose tuning will a) not be as good and b)not be as stable i.e. not last as long?

These are not one and the same thing. When you are a student, even your best is probably not "getting it right".

I stick with "learn to do it properly before you hang out your shingle" and don't charge trusting clients for your training and practice. I realize some people see it differently. Sadly, we have even had a few posters here who tune for $$ when they can't even tune a solid unison, as their videos show. Not OK, in my books... Maybe I'm the result of old-fashioned training and ethics, in which case I apologize...

This is a fair point, but at the same time, most people who get their pianos tuned can't tell the difference, even if the result is complete rubbish. It's unfortunate, but a lot of people don't make much distinction between buying gas and getting their piano tuned. With that in mind, I'd rather have everyone charge somewhat in the same ballpark and let the market decide who is worth hiring.



I agree in principle, but who decides what the threshold for "properly done" is? Even among RPTs, there is a wide range of skill level.

Hi Martha,

What are your long term goals? Do you want to only tune pianos? Or, do you also want to tune and repair? Tune, repair, and rebuild? Do historical restorations? Consulting?

I'm lucky in that I had the opportunity to be school-trained. So, when I graduated, I already tuned a wide variety of pianos. But, the business wasn't exactly waiting for me... no one was knocking down my door demanding I tune their piano.

I started out by getting old uprights, reconditioning them, and then reselling them. At that time ('79 and early 80's), they were available for little to no money. I was able to resell them to folks who could not afford newer pianos. But,they and their kids had at least playable, reliable instruments to use.

This was a good way for me to continue to develop not only my tuning skills, but also repair skills, which are important, too.

Edit: Perhaps you could create your own variation on this?

RTO,

Thanks for your input. I think different things work in different areas/markets. My experience has been when people are charged too little, they tend to take it for granted it will always be that way. In your market doing the discount could work out. It is good that you have your regular rate listed on the invoice.

I was kicking around an idea today about how to transition from tuning for free to charging a fee. One possibility would be to send the people whose pianos you practiced on a thank you letter and enclose a coupon/voucher for a small discount on their next tuning, clearly giving notice of your regular rate, as a thank you for entrusting their instrument to you when you did not have much experience. I do not know that I would actually do that. As I said, just kicking around ideas.

Mostly I am leaning towards free or full price.

Hi Jeff. How did your customers react later when you started charging more? Did you make many small increases or just one or two larger jumps?

By the way, I am so grateful for all the input I have gotten so far from this forum. It's always good to be able to learn from other's experiences.

Hi Daniokeeper,

My long term goals are to tune and repair. I don't have the space right now to rebuild, but I would like to at least try it someday. I am trying to get a "junk" piano right now to practice doing things on I wouldn't dream of doing on my good piano, at least not until I know what I'm doing. I'm sure that's how most everyone starts out.

My medium terms goals are to pass the RPT exams. I know that doesn't necessarily mean much to a lot of people, but I would like to and it gives me a very concrete goal education-wise to work towards.

My short term goals are to just get more practice in with as many different pianos as I can, so that I can reach the longer goals.

I'm not sure how much of a market there is where I live for reconditioned pianos. I know that with my piano students, the ones that use keyboards (ugh) instead of pianos do so because their parents don't want something that takes up a lot of space. (It's only on PianoWorld that I let my distaste for electronic keyboards come out. And truly, I would rather a child learn to play music on a keyboard than not at all.)

OT - what kind of danios do you have? Do you breed them?

Dave
As I stated in my post, I am new at this. Therefore, I don't have any "regular" customers yet. I am just starting out, so all of my clients are new. No one is "price shopping" with me. I am not even advertising yet. Just getting a few tunings here and there by word of mouth.

Well, this is just what I came up with. Because I had the same dilemma as you. I don't feel that I should charge the same as someone that has been doing this for years. But, yet I don't feel like my services are worth nothing. I have certainly done the "free" tunings with family and friends. But, now that I am ready to charge, this was how I decided to handle it. I'm certainly open to other ideas too. I have enjoyed reading everyone's input.



So, how will you decide when you're ready to go from free to full price. What will be your criteria.....the number of pianos you have tuned....or how confident you feel about your tunings?
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Excellent! One choice isn't necessarily preferred to another. But it's great that you have definite goals.
As for the 'junk' piano, it could be of genuine benefit to someone ( a student, a poor church,...), if you decided to recondition it.


Again, a definite plan. Excellent!


You have to go by your area and your local economy. You are coming to this with some actual life experience and an impressive business background. I would have confidence in your opinion of your area.


I had 5 zebra danios in a 55-gallon tank. I don't breed them or anything. It's just that when I signed up for the forums here at PW and was trying to think of a screen name, I happened to glance over at the fishtank...
Edit: Are you an aquarist?

I never encountered that problem. At the time, in the late seventies, the computation I gave was about the standard rate for a tuning where I was anyway. But I only tuned full-time for a year and then changed careers. So I didn't have to explain a rate increase. Decades later (a century later???), I found my talent in regular demand. I did raise my rates a while ago because of general inflation, and might have lost ONE customer.

I recently finished a book by Alan Greenspan. He wrote about the benefits of a free-market economy. You know, supply and demand. And I remember what a drywall finisher once told me: "I would rather go broke sitting in a chair than go broke working myself to death."

I charge what I consider a fair price. By the hour it is about the same as I make as an electrician at a manufacturing plant. When the time comes to "hang out your shingle" as Jurgen nicely puts it, pick a price that YOU feel comfortable with. There is nothing like a clear conscience for a good night’s sleep.

Of course the next question is WHEN is that time? I read about the 1,000 tuning estimate. Well, only your customers can decide, not you and not the PTG. Some tuners are never ready. Myself (believe it or not), was told by my hired tuning teacher that there was nothing more he could teach me after the fifth lesson, about the sixth tuning. So I started charging, and customers paid me. Did I improve since then? Of course! And I hope I never stop improving. But I am getting older...

The funny thing is most customers don’t have their piano tuned so it sounds good. They have it tuned so it doesn’t sound bad. Now here on this Forum, we talk about the importance of a great sounding tuning. But the market place is a different story. Otherwise, the tuners that can tune exceptionally well would be in very high demand. If you doubt this, go to any local semi-pro performance and listen to the intonation. Ugh!!! That will be the standard for the local discriminating customers. There is a fellow in the area that uses a guitar tuner, mostly for pianos that he has to play on himself (I don’t think he charges), and people are happy: supply and demand.

Bad Idea. The first time I see a piano it is usually a pitch raise, minor repairs, cleaning, etc because no one has tuned the piano in 15 years. The first time is always the MOST expensive, and subsequent tunings usually run less money - if they follow my "treatment plan".

It's also a bad idea to worry about what others charge. There are so many in this business that don't have a clue what to charge, and following in their footsteps is a mistake.

Use your business experience and income requirements, factor in expenses, and come up with your own pricing.

+ 1 Bob.



One of the biggest problems in this industry is that it is completely unregulated. Therefore, literally, any "Tom, Dick, Harry or Rose, can go into it and "hang up their own shingle." I don't mean that in a negative way. I simply mean many people go into it with the wrong idea.

Another big problem is that MANY, and I do mean MANY tuners are no good and never have been, nor will they ever be good. They have no intention of becoming good.

Some tuners do care, but just can't hear it no matter what.

Some don't care if it's good or not, they just want the additional income. This kind generally winds up in a category all their own. They go around messing up pianos while they try to adjust things that they should not be messing with because they lack the knowledge or caring to do it properly which costs the home owner a lot more later on when someone that knows what they are doing comes in to fix it. And, yes, they usually charge very little because they haven't a clue about business let alone quality.

The client needs to be trained that quality comes with a price tag just as anything does. Various kinds of Porcelain flooring verses inexpensive vinyl flooring for example.

A cheap not cared for Craig's list piano verses one that was very well taken care of.

A techs pay is no different. But, as we have said, many techs, tuners or whatever we may wish to call them never were any good. They think they are but, they are not because they don't know it themselves. Therefore, the reason to have a good mentor or chum up with the local PTG chapter to learn and let someone there listen to your turnings, watch your work and give you adivce most of which will do for free at one of the meetings.

I have a local guy here that I work with on a regular basis that can tune, but, he has difficulty with his unison's. The most important part of tuning are clean unison's.

Time to head out the door. Hope that helps!!! Proof read later!!

I don't have any fish now, but when I was in the pet business, I kept any where from 75-144 tanks of fish in my store. I never set out to breed any. I did have an African Cichlid tank at home where they just started spontaneously breeding, which was pretty cool.
Now, however, I have had my fill of maintaining fish tanks and will just enjoy other people's tanks.

Sometimes I have thought the same thing. Occasionally someone who knows I have been learning to tune will ask me if their piano sounds out of tune. Okay... I'm fairly confident that if they can't hear the horribly dirty unisons that their piano currently has, then there's not much I can do to their piano that will make them unhappy with it. And ultimately, it's really not about the piano, it's about the customer. (Ha, I hope I don't get banned for saying that on PianoWorld. )

I don't live in a big city and there are not many professional performance venues here. The reality for me is that most of the pianos I get to tune will probably be Grandma's old upright or the spinet that sits on top of an HVAC duct. Most of my customers probably will not be able to tell a passable tuning from a great tuning.

That being said, I still want to be able to give each piano the best tuning it can get. Even if the owners can't tell the difference, lol.

I went to tune a piano at a lovely elderly couples home (friends of our family) this afternoon. It was an old pianola and the wife wants to revive her piano playing skills. From the very beginning I could tell it would be an interesting ride - 'we haven't had it tuned for about 16 years'. The ring of the A440 was met with the clunk of a note somewhere below G#4. A pitch raise ensued so that the piano was sitting (overall) around 10 cents above pitch. 'Oh, that sounds so much better!' was the delighted comment....

I go back tomorrow to actually tune it.

Hi Martha -
It has been over 35 years since I was in your position, but I remember well the dilemna you describe. My advice would be to ask around to find out what most tuners in your area are charging. Charge the average or perhaps very slightly below average. You do not want to become known as the cheapest tuner in town. Also, you do not want to be jacking your price way up after you've gained more experience. Doing so could cost you some of your regular customers.
Gerry Johnston

When I was learning I was told to tune 100 pianos before I charge anything. Much more attainable than 1000 (a good number for feeling like you're "good), but a realistic frame for doing stable tunings in 2 hours or less.

That sounds like the church basement piano that I was working on the other day that was around 110 cents flat. It was...interesting.

Thanks Gerry. I think it will be wise to charge to going rate, after I've done enough freebies as a student that I know the tunings are stable and sound good.