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We're purchasing a new piano for our church sanctuary (seating capacity 300) to be used for weekly traditional church services and special musical programs (primarily classical repertoire). I'd appreciate hearing your opinions/suggestions regarding the following instruments currently under consideration.

Yamaha C7 7'4" - built 1969 - one owner - home use - excellent "original" condition - nothing has been done to it other than tunings and regulation - warm (not bright) tone - responsive action - clear thunderous bass - built like a tank - excellent finish - no warranty.

Kohler and Campbell Millennium KFM-700s - 7 foot - built 2001 - one owner - home use - lightly played - pristine condition - responsive action (Renner action parts and hammers) - two year warranty.

Kawai RX6 - 7 foot - built 2006 - one owner - home use - excellent condition - millennium action - warm even tone - original transferable warranty.

Albert Weber AW208 - 7 foot - NEW - powerful bright tone - strong bass - responsive action (Renner action parts and hammers)- full 10 year warranty.

Young Chang YP185 - 6'1" - NEW - action is very responsive (Renner action parts and hammers) - warm tone - bass more subdued - full 10 year warranty.

Which of the above instruments are most likely to hold up well over time in an institutional setting?

Any and all observations would be most welcome - Thanks !!

I have seen it all to often that institutions, groups and churches go out and buy the longest piano their budget can afford. Be sure to resist that temptation.

If the piano will be used for contemporary services, i.e. competing with electrified guitar and bass, it will need to be mic'd anyway and you don't need an instrument that can fill a huge auditorium.

Yamaha is always a pretty safe bet for standing up well in institutional settings, but some of the other contenders look OK too.

Thanks Jurgen !! We probably won't go the contemporary service route - but you never know !!!! For the time being we'd like to avoid using a mic !! The only concern about the Yamaha is its age.

I don't really have a lot of respect for the older Yamahas. Their fit and finish is inferior to the new ones IMO, and I think they sound cheap. You could probably make it sound nice, but to sound and play its best, it'd probably need an action overhaul and restringing. Tonal clarity tends to degrade over time (aka false beats). I would be concerned about the longevity of this piano in an institutional setting due to its age.




You know, this would probably be a good choice. It has a hard maple rim and Renner parts. Ron Overs used the Samick 225 (K&C is a Samick) rims for his pianos, so that should tell you something.



It might be ok. I don't really like Kawai all that much, and don't really see the millenium action as an automatic benefit. Kawais are used a lot in institutions and tend to hold up ok.



If this is the new Fandrich design, I'd strongly consider it. If it's not, I wouldn't.



IMO, too small for any decently sized sanctuary that also caters to "special music programs" that focuses on classical music. Not recommended.





Probably not the Yamaha. At its age, you can expect pin torque to start slipping, and action parts needing refurbishment, and tone degradation due to ageing strings and terminations.

Your guess is as good as mine with the YC and AW.

Kawais generally hold up ok, though my alma mater purchased one a few years ago, and it was sent back to Kawai under a warranty claim. In my experience, their pinblocks get a little mushy.

K&C I've never seen in person, but it has a maple rim and Renner action parts... it'll probably be fine.


Get these inspected (particular attention to the Yamaha). ANY of these pianos WILL need concert prep to be considered optimal. This includes a friction treatment to various action parts, regulation (including the damper action), string leveling, and voicing.

Carey,

This is a bit of a surprising question as you are not exactly a newbie around here.

The Yamaha can be quickly dismissed. This is from the very beginning of the imports to the USA and certainly is not to be considered as the Yamaha's are today. Remember, back then, Yamaha was thought of as a street bike, not a piano. Even a full rebuild wouldn't be worth the cost.

Is the new A. Weber an indicator of potential budget? The AW designation and the use of Renner indicates that it is the Fandrich design. I've only played one and they are impressive instruments, but I'm not sure they are really designed to fill a large space. Also, there have been some birth pains and the track record is very short.

The K&C Millenium would be the lowest cost option and lowest quality option relying on the warranty as the "get me out of trouble" factor. Even thought the Young Chang is also the Fandrich design, it does not rise to the same quality level as the A. Weber and you loose the extra volume projection for the space.

My finger, from a proven quality, age of instrument, and tonal factor, would point to the Kawai.

Are you on the search committee?

Good Luck.

Thanks much for the input thus far guys!!

Marty - don't be surprised. I "am" the search committee on this one which is why I've decided to reach out to my PW friends for a reality check. I'm hoping that some of you have actually had experience with the specific types of pianos being considered. The piano we currently have in the sanctuary is 5 feet long - well past its prime - and about 70 years old (i.e., pretty horrible). Anything would be a vast improvement.

Of course I've played and researched each instrument and have known what questions to ask. Each piano has its strengths and weaknesses. None is perfect. Unfortunately our budget is limited.

Can you give us the prices on the instruments too? That might help. Out of that lot I'd probably go for the Kawai, although I don't know what the new Young Changs or Webers are like.

Concur that the Kawai looks good (...from a distance). Their pianos are quite reliable, too. Once that action is properly regulated, and the voicing done through, they tend to stay put and maintain tone for quite a while. Solid.

I do have a retired teacher who owns a 1970 Yamaha C7. The piano has been well-maintained and is a very fine instrument. To this day; all original strings, hammers, etc. It still sounds, plays, and feels very good. But, the keys do want rebushing, and the C7-C8 octave is just a touch 'weak'. Those high strings should be replaced. But, that's really all it wants! Quite a testament to the build quality, I'd say.

If your budget will stretch, go Kawai. If your budget is smaller, go C7 and plan on fundraising for strings, hammers, in the future.

Your mileage may vary,
Just an opinion!
I remain,
Yr. humble and ob't svt.,

Do you have a technician? The technician will be a bigger influence in the longevity of the piano than the manufacturer. Shop for a technician first. That will be a better source of information than anyone here.

Carey,


Your words make them all 'sound' great. You should get a weekend job as a salespro.



The Yamaha is listed first. Wherher that's because you're listing in order of age, attractive price, or personal preference, be sure to perform your due diligence. Get someone who really knows his way around aging Yamahas to look it over. Usually an old C7 is moving in the opposite direction -- from institutional use to home use. Your situation may present a different set of potential problems.

Church pianos usually suffer more from institutional neglect -- lack of use, maintenance, and indoor climate control -- than from pounding that wears out moving parts. What kind of maintenance is your church likely to support in taking care of a replacement piano?

For a church setting using traditional church service music and a primarily classical repertoire, I would be looking at a 7' piano rather than a 6' instrument.

Although a Yamaha C7 is a wonderful piano, I would have reservations about a 1969 model because of its age and because tonally, it is probably on the downward slope. The risk of buying an old piano and then having it restored is that you can never be sure how well the restoration will turn out.

I would again carefully try all the pianos under consideration and listen to find the one that will best satisfy the musical requirements of the church. Remember that, despite what some people say, the perfect piano does not exist.

Best of luck!

Robert.

I tried an Albert Weber (228, not 208) and liked it very much, but not a real loud piano. Without knowing your budget, it is hard to tell what piano would fit your needs best, but are these the only ones you can consider? I think there might be a lot of pianos out there that would beat this list.

Joe - Without being too specific, asking prices for the Yamaha, Kohler and Campbell and Young Chang are in the $15K range. The Albert Weber and Kawai are in the low 20's. We have about $15K to work with. Going higher would be a stretch.

that has been my impression as well.


The one I'm considering is even a tad better than the one you describe - thus my dilemma. Seems to contradict everything I'd normally expect from a C7 of that vintage.

Interesting point !! Yes - we have a good tech. And, with the exception of the Kawai (which is privately owned), I also am familiar with and have confidence in the techs who have prepped the other pianos at the dealers.

In the showroom they all sound and play very well.


I listed then by age. As for the due diligence, the tech who prepped the C7 has received specific training from Yamaha and I spoke with him while he worked on the piano. He said it was in excellent condition for its age.



As long as I'm around the piano will be tuned twice per year. At a minimum the piano will be used weekly (not including rehearsal time). I can't vouch for the climate control - but the interior temps don't vary too much throughout the year. Not so sure about the humidity - but the Yamaha has been in the desert for 40 years, so it is probably well acclimated. As for the others - who knows !!

Our priority as well.


I doubt that we'd want to do any "major" work - beyond (down the road) strings, hammers and regulation.



I've been able to try each piano on at least two different occasions. Our modest budget really is the limiting factor here. And yes, I agree that the "perfect" piano does not exist - no matter how much you pay for it !!!

Of course - very few instruments are going to be as powerful as our M&H BB's !! I was surprised, however, by the sound and touch of the Albert Weber 208 - even if it was a bit bright. Our budget is a limiting factor. Quite frankly, I'm trying to stay away from Chinese built instruments at this point (nothing against them - but they probably wouldn't do well over time in an institutional setting). I've owned a Young Chang Weber in the past and was pleased with it. And, of course, I've played many Yamahas and Kawais over the years - going way back to when they were the new kids on the block !! Plus - the higher quality instruments available in our region are either too expensive, or not in very good condition. I've probably tested over 50 pianos in the past two months !!

The Albert Weber is built in Korea. Renner hammers, German strings, overall good quality materials.

I guess you've already narrowed to these choices--but, used 7' Baldwins seem to run in this price range these days. They are real workhorses with a big sound, as you probably know.