2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.9 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

Who's Online Now
74 registered members (Calavera, Anglagard44, Amy H, Bruce Sato, bwv872, aph123, BachToTheFuture, 15 invisible), 401 guests, and 478 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
double trills in Chopin's Barcarolle #1963597 09/24/12 08:50 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 204
O
Otis S Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
O
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 204
I have a question for those of you who have played Chopin's Barcarolle. How do you play the double trills:

1. As a timed trill (e.g. 32nd notes synchronized with the left hand)
2. As an untimed trill. If so, what is the approximate tempo that you use for the double trills?

Piano & Music Gifts & Accessories (570)
Piano accessories and music gift items, digital piano dolly, music theme party goods
Re: double trills in Chopin's Barcarolle [Re: Otis S] #1963624 09/24/12 10:07 AM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,179
T
Tim Adrianson Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
T
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,179
We'll see what the verdict is when the Chopin experts weigh in -- but I personally hear this definitely as a timed trill. It's very difficult to accomplish, but necessary to the musical context. It's one of the many reasons why I gravitate to a slower tempo on this work. I also like to hear that trill dynamically shaped, as well as "in time" -- the effect is so beautiful in context.

Re: double trills in Chopin's Barcarolle [Re: Otis S] #1963638 09/24/12 10:38 AM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 22,597
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 22,597
I play pretty strictly 4 'notes' of the trill to each 8th note of the accompaniment ('notes' in 'quotes' because each 'note' is actually 2 notes) except to the extent that toward the end you might have to do it just a little differently, maybe just one extra note or one fewer, to enable yourself to land on the right note at the end. (This may depend on whether you begin the trill on the principal notes or the upper notes.) Or, if you prefer, you can make it come out right just by playing around with the nachschlag -- i.e. the doohickey at the end of it. smile

Good question! It's good to know what we're doing with these things rather than just slopping our fingers on the keys and "whatever." grin

Re: double trills in Chopin's Barcarolle [Re: Otis S] #1963649 09/24/12 11:02 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,654
J
jeffreyjones Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,654
Originally Posted by Otis S
I have a question for those of you who have played Chopin's Barcarolle. How do you play the double trills:

1. As a timed trill (e.g. 32nd notes synchronized with the left hand)
2. As an untimed trill. If so, what is the approximate tempo that you use for the double trills?


#1, but 6 notes to an 8th note instead of 32nd notes.

Re: double trills in Chopin's Barcarolle [Re: jeffreyjones] #1963657 09/24/12 11:20 AM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 22,597
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 22,597
Originally Posted by jeffreyjones
....6 notes to an 8th note instead of 32nd notes.

Huh....either you take a slower tempo than I do, or you can double-trill 50% faster!

P.S. My usual speed, counting 8th notes individually, is just about 160-168. (Of course we don't 'count' it that way -- we count the broader groupings -- but I'm putting it that way for what we're talking about here.)


edit: Jeffrey -- I wonder if maybe you're counting the notes differently than I did, and maybe you play the double trill slower than I do!
When you said "6 notes," were you counting each double-note as 2 notes? (I counted them as 1.)

Last edited by Mark_C; 09/24/12 01:44 PM.
Re: double trills in Chopin's Barcarolle [Re: Otis S] #1963861 09/24/12 05:16 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,983
D
dolce sfogato Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,983
it's a trill, it's Chopin, it's untimed, faster than 32-notes to the eight-notes, a TRILL, it's just in thirds, that shouldn't stop anyone from playing a TRILL. (if it does, one's thirds aren't up to the desired level)


Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonne heure, but not anymore!
Re: double trills in Chopin's Barcarolle [Re: Otis S] #1963862 09/24/12 05:17 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,983
D
dolce sfogato Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,983
they don't have anything in common with f.i. Mendelssohn's Rondo op.14, those are 16th against 8th.


Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonne heure, but not anymore!
Re: double trills in Chopin's Barcarolle [Re: Mark_C] #1963870 09/24/12 05:30 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 204
O
Otis S Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
O
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 204
Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by jeffreyjones
....6 notes to an 8th note instead of 32nd notes.

Huh....either you take a slower tempo than I do, or you can double-trill 50% faster!

P.S. My usual speed, counting 8th notes individually, is just about 160-168. (Of course we don't 'count' it that way -- we count the broader groupings -- but I'm putting it that way for what we're talking about here.)


edit: Jeffrey -- I wonder if maybe you're counting the notes differently than I did, and maybe you play the double trill slower than I do!
When you said "6 notes," were you counting each double-note as 2 notes? (I counted them as 1.)


That would make sense as playing 48th note double trills would seem virtually impossible to do unless a very slow tempo is used for the piece.

Thanks for all of the responses received so far. It is interesting that people do use a diversity of timings for playing the double trill.

Re: double trills in Chopin's Barcarolle [Re: jeffreyjones] #1964145 09/25/12 08:53 AM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 22,597
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 22,597
Originally Posted by jeffreyjones
#1, but 6 notes to an 8th note instead of 32nd notes.

Paging Jeffrey, paging Jeffrey.... smile

How are you counting the notes?

Re: double trills in Chopin's Barcarolle [Re: Mark_C] #1964332 09/25/12 02:25 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,654
J
jeffreyjones Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,654
Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by jeffreyjones
#1, but 6 notes to an 8th note instead of 32nd notes.

Paging Jeffrey, paging Jeffrey.... smile

How are you counting the notes?


Quite approximately, and by memory. smile I don't judge the quality of a trill by the speed, but by the beauty of it. If each note is spoken well it sounds much quicker and more vibrant than it actually is.

My tempo is a moving Andantino. I don't like a Barcarolle that gets bogged down or soggy, but I wouldn't call the way I play it Allegretto as marked.

Re: double trills in Chopin's Barcarolle [Re: jeffreyjones] #1964349 09/25/12 03:07 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 22,597
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 22,597
Jeffrey: I guess you didn't understand the question -- if you looked through all the posts it would be clear, but I don't blame you for not. grin

The question was, when you said "6 notes," were you counting each 2-note 'chord' as 2 notes, or as 1?

I counted them as 1. I suspect you were counting them as 2. If you counted them as 1, it would seem to mean you're talking about playing the double trill faster than would be possible.

If you're still unclear on the question, maybe take a look at this post.

Re: double trills in Chopin's Barcarolle [Re: Mark_C] #1964721 09/26/12 10:53 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,654
J
jeffreyjones Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,654
Originally Posted by Mark_C
Jeffrey: I guess you didn't understand the question -- if you looked through all the posts it would be clear, but I don't blame you for not. grin

The question was, when you said "6 notes," were you counting each 2-note 'chord' as 2 notes, or as 1?

I counted them as 1. I suspect you were counting them as 2. If you counted them as 1, it would seem to mean you're talking about playing the double trill faster than would be possible.

If you're still unclear on the question, maybe take a look at this post.


Why would I count a third as two notes if I was reading horizontally in time? That's silly.

Re: double trills in Chopin's Barcarolle [Re: jeffreyjones] #1964725 09/26/12 10:56 AM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 22,597
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 22,597
OK -- then indeed it means you might be playing those double trills super fast! And no, it wouldn't at all be "silly" to be counting the notes the other way, just a different way. smile

Re: double trills in Chopin's Barcarolle [Re: Otis S] #1964750 09/26/12 11:51 AM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,900
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,900
Judged on a vague recollection of jeffreyjones playing the first movement of Beethoven's Op. 2 No. 3, I am not surprised that he is playing the double trills really quickly.

Re: double trills in Chopin's Barcarolle [Re: Orange Soda King] #1964797 09/26/12 01:26 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 22,597
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 22,597
Originally Posted by Orange Soda King
Judged on a vague recollection of jeffreyjones playing the first movement of Beethoven's Op. 2 No. 3, I am not surprised that he is playing the double trills really quickly.

Indeed! I remember that well. I talked about how struck I was by his mastery and apparent ease with those double thirds.

Re: double trills in Chopin's Barcarolle [Re: jeffreyjones] #1965171 09/27/12 08:16 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 204
O
Otis S Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
O
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 204
Jeffrey, thanks for your clarification.

It should be noted that Mark C's tempo for these double trills (about 12 notes per metronome marking at 54 beats per minute, which translates into about 4 notes per metronome tick at 160-168 beats/minute) is also fast. In addition to reaching a tempo in this ballpark, the trills need to be played in a musical fashion with proper voicing and dynamics. To achieve all of these things is not easy.

Re: double trills in Chopin's Barcarolle [Re: Otis S] #1965227 09/27/12 10:17 AM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 22,597
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 22,597
Originally Posted by Otis S
....In addition to reaching a tempo in this ballpark, the trills need to be played in a musical fashion with proper voicing and dynamics. To achieve all of these things is not easy.

Darn right!
I've slaved over them, re those latter things much more than speed.

BTW I think the key thing, and probably the only thing close to a good generalization, is to beware of having too much of those trills be LOUD.

Re: double trills in Chopin's Barcarolle [Re: Mark_C] #1965309 09/27/12 01:06 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,654
J
jeffreyjones Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,654
Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by Orange Soda King
Judged on a vague recollection of jeffreyjones playing the first movement of Beethoven's Op. 2 No. 3, I am not surprised that he is playing the double trills really quickly.

Indeed! I remember that well. I talked about how struck I was by his mastery and apparent ease with those double thirds.


Interestingly, I use the same fingering for both the Chopin and Beethoven passages.. 1-4 and 2-3. Very important to keep the fingers tightly close and limit the amount of movement.


Moderated by  Brendan, Kreisler 

What's Hot!!
News from the Piano World
Our January 2020 Newsletter Available Online Now...
Free Piano Newsletter
----------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Shop our Store for Music Lovers!
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Free Trial
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Metronome Steps
by Sam S - 02/23/20 02:41 PM
Piano Purchase Advice - SoCal/Orange County
by talkoftheweather - 02/23/20 02:35 PM
New set of Ronsen Weickert hammers on KAWAI RX3
by Bruce Sato - 02/23/20 01:16 PM
German pianos/pianists, US
by Maestro Lennie - 02/23/20 12:58 PM
Writing Whilst You're at the Piano ?
by AndyOnThePiano - 02/23/20 12:33 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics197,142
Posts2,929,032
Members96,081
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2019 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3