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#1963671 - 09/24/12 11:47 AM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: Kbeaumont]  
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Carlos Almeida Offline
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New promotional video to the new range of Privia digital pianos by Casio Australia smile



Yamaha P-105 (+ L-85 and Proel GF01 Damper Pedal)
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#1963685 - 09/24/12 12:05 PM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: Carlos Almeida]  
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dewster Offline
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Originally Posted by Carlos Almeida
New promotional video to the new range of Privia digital pianos by Casio Australia smile

Thanks!

PX-750 (@4:10): "Unlike most digital pianos, which use compressed waveforms to generate sound, our new lossless audio compression means you'll enjoy the purest sound we've ever offered in a Casio digital piano"

I'm trying to figure out what the heck this means. DPs might use something like delta compression to reduce storage size, but that's lossless. I'd be pleasantly shocked if these new Casios aren't stretched loopers - to me those are some of the most egregious lossey compression schemes you can use.

They come right out and say the PX-850 has string resonance (key sympathetic resonance) and it seems all of the other models have pedal sympathetic resonance.

#1963843 - 09/24/12 04:54 PM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: Kbeaumont]  
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Isnt the PX-150 supposed to be out today? I can't order it online...only pre-order!

#1963858 - 09/24/12 05:10 PM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: BrokenChord]  
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Originally Posted by BrokenChord
Isnt the PX-150 supposed to be out today? I can't order it online...only pre-order!


J&R has 10 of them in stock as of now. It's the only place I've seen 'em.

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#1963864 - 09/24/12 05:21 PM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: Kbeaumont]  
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FWIW, I agree with what Dewster said about the lossless compression. Their statement seems very strange to me - it was my understanding that sampled pianos typically use lossless compression. (I believe Kawai uses some kind of spectral modelling - that certainly could be considered as a form of lossy compression, though) I'm wondering whether something got lost (or "added") in the translation between what the engineers stated, and what the marketeers ended up saying.

Greg.


Middle-aged Jeremy Clarkson acolyte.
#1963895 - 09/24/12 06:14 PM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: dewster]  
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Originally Posted by dewster
DPs might use something like delta compression to reduce storage size, but that's lossless.


I'm not sure I would assume that DP's use lossless compression for storage of their samples by default. Lossy compression makes great economic sense to a DP manufacturer simply due to superior compression ratio. Lossless compression algorithms are typically around 2:1 where as MP3 or something similar is more like 11:1. If you're the design decision guy in charge of penny pinching, it's a no-brainer.

#1963915 - 09/24/12 07:08 PM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: kmf123kmf]  
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dewster Offline
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Originally Posted by kmf123kmf
I'm not sure I would assume that DP's use lossless compression for storage of their samples by default.

Stretching, looping, and limited velocity layering are lossy compression - if really pushed they can put a piano in 50 MB or less, which is something like 100:1. Too bad they generally sound like crap (IMO). But they're easy to implement.

Originally Posted by kmf123kmf
Lossless compression algorithms are typically around 2:1 where as MP3 or something similar is more like 11:1. If you're the design decision guy in charge of penny pinching, it's a no-brainer.

But if you're a DP coder faced with ancient slow processors and ancient tiny RAM then modern lossy compression schemes like MP3 probably aren't an option. There might be latency issues as well. But I would much rather have an MP3 compressed sample set than a looped & stretched sample set.

#1963939 - 09/24/12 08:18 PM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: Kbeaumont]  
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If Casio are referring to stretching, looping, and velocity layers, I think it is a very strange way to say it indeed.

Greg.


Middle-aged Jeremy Clarkson acolyte.
#1963941 - 09/24/12 08:19 PM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: dewster]  
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anotherscott Online content
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Originally Posted by dewster

Stretching, looping, and limited velocity layering are lossy compression

In a sense, I suppose that's accurate, in that they are all methods of "throwing out data" and using the smaller amount that is left to recreate something close to the original. But that's not the typical usage of the phrase, so I wonder if that might not create more confusion. The more common usage, as in MP3 and JPEG, is that data is removed by an algorithm that attempts to automatically determines the "least noticeable" bits of data, so that something perceptibly close to the original (we hope) is generated from the smaller file when subsequently decompressed.

#1963944 - 09/24/12 08:27 PM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: Kbeaumont]  
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@anotherscott: exactly.

Here's some more info:
http://www.casio-intl.com/asia-mea/en/emi/privia/info/#air

Casio do appear to be using the term "compression" in the standard way.

Greg.


Middle-aged Jeremy Clarkson acolyte.
#1963958 - 09/24/12 09:10 PM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: Carlos Almeida]  
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Originally Posted by Carlos Almeida
New promotional video to the new range of Privia digital pianos by Casio Australia smile



is this a demo of the string sounds????


Roland Juno Gi
Casio PX-130
Korg Krome 61
Korg SP280
Kawai ES8
Rokit KRK 6 monitors
MXL V67G microphone
#1964052 - 09/25/12 02:33 AM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: Kbeaumont]  
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It's an old demo that has been posted several times: it's an excellent demo showing how much marketing people don't understand the customers they make the products for. A long sideshow of some people behind new instruments, without ever giving an impression how the pianos will sound. Completely useless for people looking for the right DP to buy, like you and I. Probably a business presentations for their stock holders.

#1964157 - 09/25/12 09:19 AM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: anotherscott]  
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Originally Posted by anotherscott
The more common usage, as in MP3 and JPEG, is that data is removed by an algorithm that attempts to automatically determines the "least noticeable" bits of data, so that something perceptibly close to the original (we hope) is generated from the smaller file when subsequently decompressed.

Yes, details that are imperceptible (at a given resolution and if not further processed / edited in an extreme way) to the eye / ear are removed during compression phase.

To use MP3 or similar to compress the sample set means the DP needs to decompress lots of samples either on the fly or to RAM. With slower hardware this could make changing from one voice to another a fairly sluggish experience. Given proper hardware it could certainly be done, but from what we've seen re DP technology I have doubts that anyone is actually doing it.

Mike Martin just said over on another thread that the new Casios still have 4 velocity layers. I suppose only time (and testing) will tell if they are stretched / looped. My wife has a student who needs a low-end model ASAP and it would really help if manufacturers were more forthcoming with this kind of info. Every slightly new model has a slew of brand new technical sounding yet cryptic claims associated with it that must be laboriously decoded by the lay public. Which doesn't make for a very pleasant shopping experience IMO.

#1964170 - 09/25/12 09:41 AM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: dewster]  
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Originally Posted by dewster
Mike Martin just said over on another thread that the new Casios still have 4 velocity layers. I suppose only time (and testing) will tell if they are stretched / looped.


Yes samples are looped. Yes there is some stretching. In general you'll find the samples in the new PX-_50 series are about 3 times longer than in previous products. There are also more samples across the 88 note range.


-Mike Martin
Casio America

Casio Music Forums
#1964176 - 09/25/12 09:54 AM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: Mike_Martin]  
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Kawai James Offline
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Originally Posted by Mike_Martin
Yes samples are looped. Yes there is some stretching.


Uh oh...someone in Northern NJ isn't going to be terribly happy...

[Linked Image]


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
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#1964195 - 09/25/12 10:27 AM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: Mike_Martin]  
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dewster Offline
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Originally Posted by Mike_Martin
Yes samples are looped. Yes there is some stretching. In general you'll find the samples in the new PX-_50 series are about 3 times longer than in previous products. There are also more samples across the 88 note range.

Wow, thank you very much for that info Mike!

Originally Posted by Kawai James
Uh oh...someone in Northern NJ isn't going to be terribly happy...

Ha ha! Such a kidder...

Given the 3x larger sample info (revealed earlier) I was expecting stretching & looping, but the compression conundrum threw me for a loop, so to speak.

#1964203 - 09/25/12 10:47 AM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: dewster]  
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Originally Posted by dewster

Wow, thank you very much for that info Mike!

Given the 3x larger sample info (revealed earlier) I was expecting stretching & looping, but the compression conundrum threw me for a loop, so to speak.


You're welcome. There is nothing to hide and you're going to find out sooner or later anyway. wink Compared to our competition this is the area where I think you'll find some significant differences.

I'm not about to get into a discussion on the compression issue. The bottom line is the audio quality of the new Privia is substantially better.


-Mike Martin
Casio America

Casio Music Forums
#1964215 - 09/25/12 11:08 AM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: Kbeaumont]  
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So refreshing that a manufacturer's representative can come out and just tell us some basic technical information with no fuss and drama. Thank you, Mike. Since all DPs have compromises built-in, it helps those of us who are considering a purchase weigh up the pros and cons of each model more accurately.

Last edited by voxpops; 09/25/12 11:19 AM.

"you don't need to have been a rabbit in order to become a veterinarian"

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#1964220 - 09/25/12 11:15 AM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: Kbeaumont]  
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Mike, whats the word? Why is the PX-150 still listed as Pre-order or not at all on most websites? I've checked Sweetwater and Musicians friend. Kraft music has them..but only on pre-order.

NVM, ITS HERE!!


Last edited by BrokenChord; 09/25/12 11:17 AM.
#1964223 - 09/25/12 11:18 AM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: BrokenChord]  
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Sweetwater and Kraft Music both have them in stock

wink

Last edited by Mike_Martin; 09/25/12 11:18 AM.

-Mike Martin
Casio America

Casio Music Forums
#1964245 - 09/25/12 11:54 AM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: Mike_Martin]  
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Originally Posted by Mike_Martin
There is nothing to hide and you're going to find out sooner or later anyway. wink Compared to our competition this is the area where I think you'll find some significant differences.

I'm very much looking forward to reviewing them!

While we're on the subject I thought I'd put this out there, no pressure, but to the best of my knowledge no manufacturer has directly supplied a DPBSD MP3. If your or someone at Casio could do so that would be great. Like all DPBSD submitters, I'd work with you guys in the background and wouldn't post the review until we were all satisfied with it. If you can't I completely understand.

#1964318 - 09/25/12 01:59 PM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: Mike_Martin]  
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Kraft was not listing them as In Stock this morning

#1964348 - 09/25/12 03:05 PM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: Kbeaumont]  
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Sam Ash and J&R have them listed as in stock. There are none in Guitar Center showrooms anywhere on the West Coast. I'm waiting for one to show up in PDX.

#1964456 - 09/25/12 06:33 PM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: Kbeaumont]  
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Who's gonna be the first PX-330 user to post a PX-350 impression?

#1964481 - 09/25/12 07:24 PM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: Kbeaumont]  
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Im going for the PX-150 since it seems to just be a PX-350 without the 17 track recorder

#1964487 - 09/25/12 07:39 PM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: Kbeaumont]  
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BrokenChord,
The PX-350 has several things the PX-150 does not. Here is a quick list...

232 additional tones
180 rhythms with full accompaniment
The ability to split/layer tones and store registrations for live performance
Adjustable split point
1/4" outputs
1/4" Inputs
MIDI I/O
Stereo .Wav Audio File Recording to a USB thumb drive
SMF Player
LCD Display
and yes, a 17 track recorder.


-Mike Martin
Casio America

Casio Music Forums
#1964510 - 09/25/12 08:59 PM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: Mike_Martin]  
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Originally Posted by Mike_Martin
BrokenChord,
The PX-350 has several things the PX-150 does not. Here is a quick list...

232 additional tones
180 rhythms with full accompaniment
The ability to split/layer tones and store registrations for live performance
Adjustable split point
1/4" outputs
1/4" Inputs
MIDI I/O
Stereo .Wav Audio File Recording to a USB thumb drive
SMF Player
LCD Display
and yes, a 17 track recorder.


Would you be able to tell us how the speakers are different and also how this generation's speakers are different than the 2009 (x30) models?


Roland Juno Gi
Casio PX-130
Korg Krome 61
Korg SP280
Kawai ES8
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#1964557 - 09/25/12 11:46 PM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: Kbeaumont]  
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Guitar Center in Chicago said they have 26 in the distribution channel, but that the earliest they'd have one in a store is around two weeks from now. Aaarggh!!!! Still trying to figure out the choice between a px-350 and a used MO8.

#1964560 - 09/26/12 12:10 AM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: Marvin Eight]  
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Originally Posted by Marvin Eight
Still trying to figure out the choice between a px-350 and a used MO8.

The MO8 is almost twice as heavy (46.3 lbs) and significantly deeper (15.3") and has BHE not GHS/GH. I looked at a MOX8 before getting my 330 -- MOX8 is awesome, but it's a mountain of wizardry! Depends on what you want. I just wanted a 3-pedal setup with okay piano sound/key feel, and a GM patch set for kicks. I suspect the MO8 doesn't excel at realistic acoustic piano sound -- it's a synth not a digital piano.

#1964653 - 09/26/12 08:05 AM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: Mike_Martin]  
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Those sound like nice features, but not anything I need. Im just a college kid, so I can't justify spending $200 extra on those features. As long as I can plug in my headphones and practice, I'm good.


I have a question though. I purchased a CS-67 from Amazon yesterday since they listed it as compatible with the PX-150 and PX-350...but what about the SP-32 pedal? Kraft Music is bundling the keyboards with a CS-67 and an SP-33. I have not been able to find the SP-33, is it not released?

Thanks

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