2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
Who's Online Now
74 members (anotherscott, c++, Catlady, Beowulf, Brahms4, cozmopak, accordeur, 23 invisible), 599 guests, and 473 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 2 1 2
Re: Piano Books Fee, buying piano books for students
John v.d.Brook #1960349 09/17/12 05:44 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 309
P
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
P
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 309
Originally Posted by John v.d.Brook
Originally Posted by Para Otras
Originally Posted by Minniemay
Actually, if you collect money from parents for books, some states will expect you to collect sales tax and pay it to the state. They view you as a vendor, so it COULD have a tax impact.
So they expect double the sales tax, once from the store and also from you?

Isn't it just you getting their books for them, not vending them? I have never heard of this, which is why I'm asking.

You're not in the business of selling music, you're just doing your students a favor. If states actually get so desperate that they want teachers to collect sales tax on the few books we pick up for students through the year, we'd do just like anyone else, and that is, either under the table or not at all. Somewhere I read that when taxes/govt regulations get too abusive, people simply cease and desist. Isn't this what happens in many countries, such as Italy, where taxes are so high that no one pays them, or only makes token payments?
That's what I thought too. I'm not selling the books. I'm purchasing the books for the students and then being paid back.

(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Re: Piano Books Fee, buying piano books for students
bzpiano #1960371 09/17/12 06:43 PM
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,333
P
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,333
If you get audited, there could indeed be some questioning of your purchasing music at a discount and selling it at face value, if you confess to it. That price differential is taxable income. And if you were to take a deduction for your music purchases, then you surely should bother to declare the income when you resell them.

So yes, there could be some tax consequences if you want to be a boy scout or girl scout about this, never mind sales tax. In practical terms, though, I don't think it's worth bothering about. Or you can always just ask mom or dad to pay you cash for the books that you went to the trouble to obtain for them.

Piano teaching is both penny ante and a business....

Re: Piano Books Fee, buying piano books for students
Peter K. Mose #1960427 09/17/12 09:15 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,639
7000 Post Club Member
Offline
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,639
Originally Posted by Peter K. Mose
If you get audited, there could indeed be some questioning of your purchasing music at a discount and selling it at face value, if you confess to it. That price differential is taxable income. And if you were to take a deduction for your music purchases, then you surely should bother to declare the income when you resell them.

So yes, there could be some tax consequences if you want to be a boy scout or girl scout about this, never mind sales tax. In practical terms, though, I don't think it's worth bothering about. Or you can always just ask mom or dad to pay you cash for the books that you went to the trouble to obtain for them.

Piano teaching is both penny ante and a business....

Peter, you're so right. I forgot to mention that although the store gives me a small discount, we have a 9.5% sales tax, so I actually end up losing a bit of money every time I purchase books for students. Not enough to quibble about, and certainly not enough to go through all that painful book keeping crap.


"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA
Re: Piano Books Fee, buying piano books for students
bzpiano #1960434 09/17/12 09:54 PM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,461
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,461
This has been on my mind a lot. I actually thought about raising my registration fee this year to include books, but I ended up not doing it. It would certainly be easy and then I would have to worry about the tax consequences of "selling" the books.


~Stanny~

Independent Music Teacher
Certified Piano Teacher, American College of Musicians
Member: MTNA, NGPT, ASMTA, NAMTA
Re: Piano Books Fee, buying piano books for students
bzpiano #1960450 09/17/12 10:26 PM
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,333
P
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,333
John, we're quite united on this one. You and I figure we're providing a little additional service to families by procuring music books for them essentially at cost. It's not worth our bothering about taxwise.

But the more I ponder ez's good questions, the more complex they become. I think she should ask an accountant or tax preparer for some advice before she makes changes to her billing practices. Stanny has put a finger on the dilemma.





Last edited by Peter K. Mose; 09/17/12 10:28 PM.
Re: Piano Books Fee, buying piano books for students
bzpiano #1960563 09/18/12 08:13 AM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 820
L
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
L
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 820
I buy the books as a favor to my students, and they reimburse me. I pay taxes on them when I purchase them, so the state is getting their cut. I am not making any profit to be taxed on.

Since I am at the music store often, it is no big deal for me to pick up the books. I don't keep much of an inventory.


piano teacher
Re: Piano Books Fee, buying piano books for students
bzpiano #1960642 09/18/12 11:04 AM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 27
A
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
A
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 27
Hi ezpiano~

I had some of the same problems as you before last year. The main thing is that parents can take FOREVER to get the books!

I do similar to what you are considering. I charge an $80 Registration & Materials Fee. This covers all student books for a year, plus helps cover other costs like handouts, prizes, recital fees, etc. I just deduct from it all year and never have to worry about extra billing or waiting on parents. This has worked really well for me, but yes, it does require extra bookkeeping. I keep track of all books bought for students and the cost so I know where I'm at with their fee.

It's also nice, because if a student drops out before the end of the year (happens a lot; people just don't stick with one activity anymore), I'm left with the rest to use for advertising for new students or improving the studio, etc.

I don't keep any books "in stock". I order from Prima Music (www.primamusic.com) and have them ship to my house. I end up waiting between 1 - 2 weeks, but it's still sooner than the parents getting the books and I don't have to spend 10 mins per family telling them what books to get and what they look like, etc. Prima Music is great for the reason that they give substantial discounts. The more you buy the more discount they will give. And shipping is free on every order that is at least $30 (but is the slowest shipping option). It works really well for my studio!

P.S. If you just include the Registration Fee as part of your income, then it should be fine. Then whenever you buy books that is considered an expense. Shouldn't have a problem with that. Visit Piano Adventures Forum for other advice on this same issue.. it helped me.

Last edited by April's Piano St.; 09/18/12 11:09 AM.

April's Piano Studio
"Where music and imagination meet!"
www.aprilspianostudio.net
Re: Piano Books Fee, buying piano books for students
bzpiano #1960663 09/18/12 11:54 AM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 255
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 255
My teacher does it the way Peter K Mose does. She keeps a variety of method, repertoire and theory books on hand and distributes them as needed, putting the cost (with tax) on the next month's bill. If she doesn't have something on hand, she will have it for the next week's lesson. She has been teaching for over 40 years and has a finely tuned business. She's 80 yo and amazing, both in her stamina and organizational skills, as well as her playing. I fantasize about still taking lessons when I'm 80 and she's 100!


Piano: Brodmann PE 187 Strauss
Flute: Sankyo CF-201 with RT2 headjoint
Re: Piano Books Fee, buying piano books for students
Peter K. Mose #1960724 09/18/12 02:48 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,269
D
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,269
Originally Posted by Peter K. Mose
Originally Posted by dumdumdiddle


I call my music book fee an 'annual enrollment fee' that parents pay in May for their child to continue lessons for the new school year in September. I charge $100 for new students, $75 for returning students. While the cost of music for kids in method books is going to be different from students doing classical repertoire and anthologies, the fee is sufficient for all students.


How much of this $100 or $75 fee might go to music books you issue per student? What about the adult who comes to you ready to play Beethoven sonatas, and the complete set of 32 sonatas might cost $100?

Many teachers are charging such an enrollment fee, though without your generosity of disseminating books as part of the fee. For them it's just a carpet-cleaning and piano-tuning fee.


Most of the fee goes towards books. Beginner students may only use $45 of the fee for actual books whereas my early intermediate students might use closer to $55 or $60. Since I don't teach any students at an advanced level (such as the example you mentioned about the Beethoven sonatas) this fee structure works great for me. I plan my students' year out in advance, figuring as best I can what music books they'll need for the coming year. I buy most of my music at music teachers conventions, where discounts can be up to 40% off; the rest of my music at www.primamusic.com , where I get 25% plus free shipping, no sales tax. I really stretch the funds and so far it's the best system I've found.


Music School Owner
Early Childhood Music Teacher/Group Piano Teacher/Private Piano Teacher
Member of MTAC and Guild
Re: Piano Books Fee, buying piano books for students
bzpiano #1960787 09/18/12 05:08 PM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 218
P
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
P
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 218
I just have the parents prepay for the materials before I order them. The only time I ask parents to hunt down the music is when it's out of print.


Children's piano instructor
Member NGPT, MTNA/TMTA/PMTA, NFMC/SJFMC
Re: Piano Books Fee, buying piano books for students
bzpiano #1960790 09/18/12 05:12 PM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 218
P
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
P
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 218
I just have the parents prepay for the materials before I order them. The only time I ask parents to hunt down the music is when it's out of print.


Children's piano instructor
Member NGPT, MTNA/TMTA/PMTA, NFMC/SJFMC
Re: Piano Books Fee, buying piano books for students
FormerlyFlute #1960963 09/19/12 01:31 AM
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,333
P
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,333
Originally Posted by FormerlyFlute
If she doesn't have something on hand, she will have it for the next week's lesson. She has been teaching for over 40 years and has a finely tuned business. She's 80 yo and amazing, both in her stamina and organizational skills, as well as her playing. I fantasize about still taking lessons when I'm 80 and she's 100!


Clearly she's a gem of a teacher, and sounds like a person without age. Those are our role models.

Re: Piano Books Fee, buying piano books for students
bzpiano #1960971 09/19/12 02:27 AM
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,333
P
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,333
Originally Posted by ezpiano.org
I think what I want to find out is which way is easier?

Method 1: Collect the fee ($50 or $100) up front then complete with an itemize list at the school year end, or

Method 2: Buy books and invoice them from time to time.

Any comments?


EZ, my view is that these two ways are about equal in terms of your work. In either case, you will have to keep a record of which books you disseminate to which student, and at what cost.

In another post, you asked about how much physical space in your studio would be required if you stock up a bunch of music materials. Not very much: at most a small bookcase worth of space. Or it could be just a stack or two of piano books sitting in a closet.

Try to imagine 2, 3, or 4 piano books, multiplied by the number of students in your studio. That's probably not a lot of space. You're not going to be running a music store.

However, if can afford it, it's fun to keep buying piano teaching materials you may or may not ever need. They'll just sit around in piles, year after year, and outgrow whatever space you have. And you'll forget you own them. And then you'll start to buy the same books twice when you get a new pupil, instead of disseminating what you already own. And pretty soon you *should* be running a small music store. Or worrying that you have become one of those hoarders we see on reality tv. Trust me on this one....

Page 2 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Ken Knapp 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
(ad) SWEETWATER Cyber Sale
New Topics - Multiple Forums
MIDI to USB double output
by lukasz-zsakul - 11/30/20 04:57 PM
Chopin's Nocturne op 27 no.2 vs. op.72 no.1
by RhaegarTargaryen - 11/30/20 03:51 PM
back after 34 years
by JerryLouis - 11/30/20 02:44 PM
Roland FP-30 Bluetooth Connectivity Issue
by Yaboku - 11/30/20 01:08 PM
12 year old Yammy glue failure on 60% of the keys
by jkess114 - 11/30/20 12:29 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics203,170
Posts3,029,003
Members99,437
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2020 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4