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Re: Why are Jansen benches so much money? [Re: Radio.Octave] #1958359
09/13/12 01:39 PM
09/13/12 01:39 PM
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Radio.Octave Offline OP
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I guess when I actually need a new bench, it might be a different story, but the one I have now is not wobbly at all. It squeaked a bit, but tightening the bolts seemed to take care of that. It's a few years old, but I'm only about 160 lbs, so that probably helps.


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Re: Why are Jansen benches so much money? [Re: Radio.Octave] #1958362
09/13/12 01:42 PM
09/13/12 01:42 PM
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Williamsburg, VA
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Quote
Why the heck are they so expensive?


This was your question in the OP.

We answered it. Apparently you don't want to take the answers you have received very seriously, and your response is to talk trashily about pissing money away. You have moved from conversation about merits into simple emoting and trolling. Have a nice day.

Re: Why are Jansen benches so much money? [Re: Radio.Octave] #1958367
09/13/12 01:50 PM
09/13/12 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Radio.Octave
There doesn't seem to be any shortage of Jansen fanboys on here though, so I'm sure they'll have no trouble staying in business.
"Fanboys" are incredibly hard to earn around here.

Your mistaken assumption is the belief that the cost has to do with hype, marketing, branding, paid spokesperson or some such markup - like a Nike shoe. It's cost is based on the cost of materials and workmanship. The idea that it could be cheaper is an idea based on fantasy.

Honestly, if it cost $100, there would be a whole market of knockoffs trying to sell at $50. Obviously something about the Jansen is attractive to you or why would you be debating? Being honest, what is lacking in the bench you have?


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Re: Why are Jansen benches so much money? [Re: Radio.Octave] #1958369
09/13/12 01:54 PM
09/13/12 01:54 PM
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Nashville, TN
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We got an artist bench with the Schimmel piano we purchased several years ago at my church. It was a nice looking bench but it was not a Jansen. Within a year it would rock back and forth on the top whenever your weight shifted from side to side. That is very disconcerting while you are playing. There are lots of benches you can get for less, but as stated earlier, you get what you pay for. I once had a couch from Montgomery Wards that cost about $250. It lasted about 5 years before it was saggy and the joints were loose. I bought another couch from the Hickory Furniture Market, not sure of the brand but it was a high end couch. We have had that couch for 15 years and it shows no signs of wear whatsoever, plus it's much more comfortable than the cheap couch ever was. Quality definitely makes a difference. That couch will easliy outlast 5 or more cheap couches, and even if it was 5 times as much money, it will be worth it. That couch will no doubt last us the rest of our lives, what's that worth? To me it was worth every penny of what I paid for it.


Knabe 5'2" Louis XV Walnut circa 1927
Very part time piano broker.
Re: Why are Jansen benches so much money? [Re: Radio.Octave] #1958381
09/13/12 02:16 PM
09/13/12 02:16 PM
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Williamsburg, VA
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Sorry Pianolance, you're a high end couch fanboy ... smile

Del clearly explained why the bench costs more. If the OP disagrees with that assessment, he has not offered a counterargument.

Cost is measurable. Value is personal. If someone does not value what Jansen offers for all that money, then they should choose another product.

Re: Why are Jansen benches so much money? [Re: PianoWorksATL] #1958396
09/13/12 02:25 PM
09/13/12 02:25 PM
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Radio.Octave Offline OP
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Originally Posted by PianoWorksATL
Originally Posted by Radio.Octave
There doesn't seem to be any shortage of Jansen fanboys on here though, so I'm sure they'll have no trouble staying in business.
"Fanboys" are incredibly hard to earn around here.

Your mistaken assumption is the belief that the cost has to do with hype, marketing, branding, paid spokesperson or some such markup - like a Nike shoe. It's cost is based on the cost of materials and workmanship. The idea that it could be cheaper is an idea based on fantasy.

Honestly, if it cost $100, there would be a whole market of knockoffs trying to sell at $50. Obviously something about the Jansen is attractive to you or why would you be debating? Being honest, what is lacking in the bench you have?


I did some research years ago when I needed a bench and remembered reading good things about Jansens. Honestly, nothing is really lacking in the the one I have now, just thought I'd revisit the idea.


Kawai RX-6 BLAK
Re: Why are Jansen benches so much money? [Re: Radio.Octave] #1958412
09/13/12 02:39 PM
09/13/12 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Radio.Octave
Honestly, nothing is really lacking in the the one I have now, just thought I'd revisit the idea.


If you have a Kawai adjustable bench, there is nothing lacking. The one that came with my K-2 was solid from day one. When I traded in the K-2 they wouldn't let me keep the bench! That was a bummer.


Gary
Essex EUP-111 at the mountains
W. Hoffmann T-122 at the beach
Re: Why are Jansen benches so much money? [Re: Piano*Dad] #1958415
09/13/12 02:47 PM
09/13/12 02:47 PM
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Radio.Octave Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Piano*Dad
Sorry Pianolance, you're a high end couch fanboy ... smile

Del clearly explained why the bench costs more. If the OP disagrees with that assessment, he has not offered a counterargument.

Cost is measurable. Value is personal. If someone does not value what Jansen offers for all that money, then they should choose another product.


Del did offer a reasonable explanation (which I appreciate), although all those criteria are pretty subjective. I could see if they were hand carving these things with a pocket knife, but how long could it possibly take to assemble? How much do the materials really cost? Something is only worth what someone else is willing to pay for it. Apparently, a lot of people are willing to drop 600+ bucks for a vinyl (not even leather) covered bench. Great. Enjoy! thumb As for me, thanks, but no thanks.


Kawai RX-6 BLAK
Re: Why are Jansen benches so much money? [Re: Radio.Octave] #1958416
09/13/12 02:48 PM
09/13/12 02:48 PM
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San Jose, CA
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"...I did some research years ago when I needed a bench and remembered reading good things about Jansens. Honestly, nothing is really lacking in the the one I have now, just thought I'd revisit the idea..."

Then you are in good shape, Radio.Octave, and I'm glad to hear it. Time was, I would sit on a kitchen chair to play and noticed no problem. Now that I'm old and wore out and have daily-medication-grade problems with my back, it's a different story.

I bought a $400 made-in-China bench when I got my present piano. It looked ok until I raised the scissor-lift mechanism to the proper height, then it was kind of bizarre. But that didn't bother me much. The bench was too narrow front-to-back to be truly stable during active playing, especially when I sat, as we're supposed to, with one-third of the butt on the bench. Then the scissor-lift got creaky, and the upholstery buttons started to pop off. It had become disgusting and uncomfortable, and frankly looked skimpy and silly next to a grand piano.

I still have it. It's fine as a computer bench. Wish I'd popped for the Jansen in the first place; I'd be 400 bucks ahead.

I could tell you a similar story about my attempts at false economies with piano lamps, finally ending up with a House of Troy balance arm lamp--- which I would have been far better off financially to have bought in the first place. Learning curve. You're like me--- have to find out on your own. It was worth the money, to me, to take some obstacles and distractions out of my path, since piano is hard enough as it is.


Clef

Re: Why are Jansen benches so much money? [Re: Radio.Octave] #1958423
09/13/12 03:00 PM
09/13/12 03:00 PM
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A bench either works or it doesn't. If you have one that works then of course $600 for a Jansen would be a waste of money. Then again even $6 for a new bench is wasted if you already have one that works.

If one combines the fact that Jansen benches seem to last longer than most, they have proven sturdier when used heavily or by a demanding player and then you add in the price premium that "Made in USA" always brings I'd say somewhere in the $600 is about what one might expect.

Given that cheaper benches range from about 1/4 up to nearly 3/4 the Jansen price without Jansen's reputation for longevity and sturdiness and their "Made in USA" status, just how much would you expect them to cost? $589 maybe? $499? Hard to see why they would possibly be sold for less than what you can spend on a lower-quality bench.


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Re: Why are Jansen benches so much money? [Re: Radio.Octave] #1958474
09/13/12 04:47 PM
09/13/12 04:47 PM
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SouthWest Michigan
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Roger Ransom Offline
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There is no question that the Jansen benches are excellent. However, it seems like the choices given here are - Jansen or a piece of crap that will fall apart in 2 years.

In truth, there are quite a few between those extremes. I have an artists bench I bought for quite a bit less that a Jansen about 20 years ago. I didn't even know about Jansen then. Anyway, it works great, it's comfortable, does not wobble at all. I expect if I turned it upside down and compared the two that mine would certainly not look as good. I don't do that. I just sit on it and play my piano.

For many things there is a point of diminishing returns. After a certain point, it costs a lot more to get a little bit better.

If you don't think it's worth it, don't buy it. That does not necessarily mean that your only other choice is a piece or crap. That's ridiculous.



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Re: Why are Jansen benches so much money? [Re: Radio.Octave] #1958475
09/13/12 04:49 PM
09/13/12 04:49 PM
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Maryland/DC/No. VA
Steve Cohen Offline
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Originally Posted by Radio.Octave
I guess when I actually need a new bench, it might be a different story, but the one I have now is not wobbly at all. It squeaked a bit, but tightening the bolts seemed to take care of that. It's a few years old, but I'm only about 160 lbs, so that probably helps.


A "cure" for squeaks in polished ebony benches is to remove the legs and apply a thin coat of vasoline to the high polished surfaces that touch when the legs are re-installed.


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Re: Why are Jansen benches so much money? [Re: Steve Cohen] #1958490
09/13/12 05:15 PM
09/13/12 05:15 PM
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Radio.Octave Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Steve Cohen
Originally Posted by Radio.Octave
I guess when I actually need a new bench, it might be a different story, but the one I have now is not wobbly at all. It squeaked a bit, but tightening the bolts seemed to take care of that. It's a few years old, but I'm only about 160 lbs, so that probably helps.


A "cure" for squeaks in polished ebony benches is to remove the legs and apply a thin coat of vasoline to the high polished surfaces that touch when the legs are re-installed.


Cool smile I'll give that a try if I get a case of "the squeaks" again.


Kawai RX-6 BLAK
Re: Why are Jansen benches so much money? [Re: Del] #1958504
09/13/12 05:59 PM
09/13/12 05:59 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,557
Sandy Eggo, California
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OperaTenor Offline
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Originally Posted by Del
Originally Posted by Radio.Octave
Why the heck are they so expensive? Over 600 bucks for the standard bench, and it doesn't even come with leather. Really? I'm sure the quality is great, but that price just seems ridiculous to me. crazy

They are hand-made in the U.S.
They are a very limited production item.
The company uses very heavy-duty and high quality components and materials.
They are very heavy and shipping is expensive.
Their back-up service -- though rarely needed -- is excellent.
The dealer wants to make a small profit.

ddf


This ^^


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Re: Why are Jansen benches so much money? [Re: Steve Cohen] #1958554
09/13/12 08:29 PM
09/13/12 08:29 PM
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Toronto, Ontario
Sparky McBiff Offline
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Originally Posted by Steve Cohen


A "cure" for squeaks in polished ebony benches is to remove the legs and apply a thin coat of vasoline to the high polished surfaces that touch when the legs are re-installed.


Thanks for that bit of info Steve.
I'll get around to doing that with my artist bench that I got with my Hailun since it has the occasional squeak.


Re: Why are Jansen benches so much money? [Re: Radio.Octave] #1958604
09/13/12 10:06 PM
09/13/12 10:06 PM
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Tomball, Texas
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I thought we covered Jansen benches in another recent thread, but here's my quickie synopsis. I bought an SD10 Baldwin and two artist benches after hurricane Katrina. All were submerged for a couple of days...in salt water. They then were left in situ for about 8 months when I came upon this wacky deal. I made a low offer on all three items and since no one else bothered to respond to the ad seriously, I was the "lucky" buyer. I knew that the piano would likely take the rest of my life to put back in order, but the benches, well heck it's just a bench right? The first one we disassembled was the Jansen. The mechanism was rusted solid, the vinyl was covered with black mold and a nice supply of mildew. Some of the wood was deformed. At any rate, I soaked the mechanism in penetrating oil and after a few days got it to move again. We replaced the offending wood and recovered it and I refinished the legs, as much of the paint had flaked off. It has no ill manners despite its illustrious history. The other artist bench had no name on it that was readable. I recognized it immediately as it was the same as those we had in college on stage. They were only a few years old when I attended and rocked quite effectively. I managed to shim the mechanism to get rid of most of the rocking, but despite being another domestic competitor, it's no Jansen. So, I would say that if the Jansen can survive what it did, and with some help be resurrected, it's a good design to start with. I think it's a "you get what you pay for" kind of thing. I didn't pay the premium that Jansen charges, but I think my sweat equity compensated. I looked at it from the perspective that I paid for the benches and got the SD10 for free.

Re: Why are Jansen benches so much money? [Re: Radio.Octave] #1958618
09/13/12 10:51 PM
09/13/12 10:51 PM
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Michigan
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kpembrook Offline
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Originally Posted by Radio.Octave
All good responses, but still way too much, IMO. The adjustable bench that came with my piano works just fine. I'd rather spend a few hundred on a more reasonable bench, and spend the $400-$600 that's left over on piano work (tuning, voicing, etc).


Well, your opinion could get revised just by turning your bench upside down and looking at the cheap, crappy mechanism. Then go turn a Jansen bench upside down. The difference is obvious.

I have made a minor hobby of photographing the "guts" of various adjustable mechanism. The only thing that comes remotely close to Jansen is the old MAFCO design (also made in USA). All the other bench mechanisms and construction are so crude by comparison as not to merit being spoken of in the same sentence as Jansen.

Also, I regularly get calls from people who have a "Jansen" bench that failed and could we supply parts?" Upon investigation, it turns out they have a cheap Jansen knock-off and thought they could get Jansen durability for $150. It doesn't happen. Mechanisms fail and legs break with stunning regularity and there are no parts available if repairs are needed. It's just money gone and that's it. Genuine Jansen parts just don't fit onto the crude mechanisms that are designed to do little more than fail.

With the Jansen, you can get a complete bushing kit to renew the mechanism for a modest price. Over the time you would own a Jansen you could easily go through 3 other benches.


Keith Akins, RPT
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Re: Why are Jansen benches so much money? [Re: kpembrook] #1958864
09/14/12 12:41 PM
09/14/12 12:41 PM
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Rockville, MD
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Just a few things to add to Del's comments.

Jansen benches are made to take professional wear.
The coverings and mechanisms LAST a long time.
Better yet, when the mechanisms wear, and ALL do, they can be refurbished with the parts in kits available from Janssen at reasonable cost. In fact, they're DESIGNED that way.

I am no basher of the quality of things made in China.
It is certainly difficult to beat their labor costs.
Why nobody in China has (yet) seen fit to duplicate the Janssen mechanism for pennies on the dollar is somewhat mystifying. If they wanted to do it, I'm sure they could.

Meanwhile - I'm really glad they haven't.

I'm willing, and by scrimping and saving, able to pay a bit more for something well designed and well manufactured, put together by American workers, paid a living wage with health care benefits.

<RANT>
Frankly, I say, getting into a bit of a rant, I'm tired of the "race to the bottom", where it's ok to squeeze the other guy as much as possible, pay as little as possible, and of course, just don't squeeze me. Pay me WHAT I'M WORTH.
</RANT>
Yes, there are, or at least were, alternatives between "POC" and Janssen super deluxe. I owned a Schaff artist bench, got a lot of years from it - but when it started to rock from side to side, there was nothing I could to to repair it. Some shims helped a little at the cost of losing the ability to adjust it.

The new Janssen Petite in vinyl (told you I was on a budget), by contrast is ROCK SOLID, adjust easily, and makes absolutely no noise.
I'm sure I'll get years from it trouble free, and will be able to service it myself when it finally does wear to the point where it needs such servicing.

Finally, FWIW, I just came back from studying in some master classes in Germany. No Janssen benches there, rather some sort of petite size pneumatically adjustable bench, also rock solid, very easy to adjust. I don't know the manufacturer, but the price, according to the folks at PianoHaus Kemp, who supplied the workshop piano, was 175 Euros plus shipping plus duty if I wanted to buy one - less than Janssen Petite retail, and I liked how easy it was to adjust and how solid it felt. Had I not bought the Janssen, I'd have bought one of those. To the best of my knowledge, no dealer has chosen to import them to this country. I'd have been on my own, of course, for parts and future repairs - a risk I would not face with the Janssen.


Andrew Kraus, Pianist
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Rockville, MD USA
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1929 Steinert 6'10" (Close copy of New York S&S "B")
Re: Why are Jansen benches so much money? [Re: Piano*Dad] #1958890
09/14/12 01:37 PM
09/14/12 01:37 PM
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Nashville, TN
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Pianolance Offline
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Originally Posted by Piano*Dad
Sorry Pianolance, you're a high end couch fanboy ... smile



I would say that I'm more like a high end couch potato. grin ha


Knabe 5'2" Louis XV Walnut circa 1927
Very part time piano broker.
Re: Why are Jansen benches so much money? [Re: Radio.Octave] #1959326
09/15/12 04:43 PM
09/15/12 04:43 PM
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I LOVE the Jansen bench that came with my Steinway- extremely comfortable, solid and secure. I just wished it adjusted to a slightly higher level. If I were buying a bench separately, I would definitely buy a Jansen-- it's worth every penny in terms of support, stability and comfort when you consider the number of hours spent using it.

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