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Virginia, we've been stressing that that theory helps in playing music, and also a practical hands-on way of studying theory first. Like anything, music and the theory behind it can get more complicated and as you progress you'll natural keep stride. There's advanced, and then there is geek-speak, and the side issues Ed and I were discussing yesterday were on the geek side. It isn't necessary for practical purposes, and could be confusing.

Well here's an equivalent, in a sitcom episode with ready-to-assemble furniture.
episode - analysis paralysis

Just keep in mind that there is academic theory and what I call practical theory. We have to remember that all of this theory is designed to explain what we hear so another can replicate it. Knowing all the theory in the world won't help you unless you can translate that into practical knowledge to connect what you hear in your head or on a recording to what you play on the piano. That's why lots of people read a bunch of books and are still discouraged when they can't play.
I like turning on lights. That's why I'm here and that's why I teach.

Thanks for clarifying. I agree about the information overload 'cause it was giving me a headache, but I'm better today and ready for some more studying of chords and such.

"Analysis paralysis"....I'm going to have to remember this because I do tend to over analyze things and I've ordered 3 books that if I take the time to read them I won't have time to practice....at least not 2hrs per day while I'm working full time.

Great advice and info.

Thanks!

How something is presented also makes a big difference. A simple thing can be presented using formal technical language that can send a student's head spinning. It makes everything seem complicated, but the writer sounds clever. In good teaching you leave your ego at the door, and your primary concern is that the student will get the picture. Concepts always come before terminology, and those concepts are best learned through live experiences.

The foundation of theory lies in simple things. They are often skimmed over or carelessly taught, yet they are not trivial. Take for example the idea of an interval, which is the distance between two notes. If time is spent exploring this, with experimentation; or the idea of playing with the middle note of a major and minor scale - this opens insight into many other things. Then if you come across fancier things, they'll relate to what you know.

The best wording came from a student studying theory with me who had first self-taught, "I used to think that simple things in music were complicated. Now I know that complicated music happens through simple things." If you get to that kind of space, then the world opens up.

Ed, it is ironic that I agree with you, and I believe this has not been evident in the past. The problem is this medium, having to present incredibly complicated ideas to people who are on every conceivable level, from rank amateurs to highly sophisticated and experienced musicians.

As always there are two very different ways to look at the dim7 chrord, and I want to present both views – as best I can.

1) In a fake book or lead sheet, a composer would definitely write C°7 for chord that, when written out, would have to be written C Eb F# A. Why? Because he is not going to write F#°7/C, which THEORETICALLY is what the chord really is.

Now, since only a melody note will be there for such lead sheets, an experienced musician who also has been involved in a lot of notation will mentally “compute” the spelling of this chord, notated as C°7, based on context.

2) To use a practical example, the tune “What’s New” will start on D°7 to C or C6 or C something. That does not mean that the chord will be spelled D F Ab Cb. It simply means that this chord will move to C, and that demands the spelling of D FAb/B.

3) Again, this D°7 chord COULD be written as B°7/D, but I have never in my life seen that done. I DO recommend that students write it that way, as an intermediate step to bridge the gap between theory and practical needs, but always with the warning that they will see D°7 in practical usage.

4) There are some very famous and very fine arrangers who use ° for both a three OR four note diminished chord. I don’t like this notation, but anyone reading charts had better know that it is common.

Here is specifically what Dick Hyman says on the subject, quoting:

“Arrangers and players usually deal with four-tone diminished chords [C Eb Gb A] rather than diminished triads [C Eb Gb]

Some writers refer to the four-tone chords as ‘diminished sevenths’. Diminshed chords, whether of three or four tones, are often indicated by ° instead of dim.”

In my experience he is on solid ground when stating that countless fake books will use ° for the four-note diminished chord. The fact that I don’t like it and don’t follow that “convention” is not going to change how lead sheets are written.

Now, the case AGAINST this notation:

1) Using ° to express both three and four-note chords is very imprecise and leads to the conclusion that the three-note chord does not exist and is not important. If I see B D F, vii° in the key of C, I am not going to assume an Ab. I want chord symbols to be more precise than that.

2) Jeff’s chart is practical, but a student who is advanced enough to slog through all that info, in all keys, is advanced enough to understand the concept of C°7 THEORETICALLY being written C Eb Gb Bbb, which would at least make the spelling of the chord, as presented, consistent in all keys.

3) For very practical reasons, IF the symbol C°7 is used for C Eb F# A, and it would be in lead sheets, at some point students need to know that THEORETICALLY that notation is based on the bass note and not the root, because:

4) The THEORETICALLY root of a diminished chord is the note on the bottom when the chord is stacked in 3rds.

5) Again, to complete the foundation, and this is really tough for me as a teacher, this idea has to be taught at SOME point: C Eb F# A = F#°7/C: C D# F# A = D#°7/C: C Eb Gb A = A°7/C: BUT C Eb Gb Bbb = C°7

6) Finally, we THEN have to explain that F#°7/C, D#°7/C, A°7/C as well as C°7, the THEORETICAL chords, will all be written simply as C°7 in a lead sheet, and in many they will all be written as C°

It takes me MONTHS to cover all this info with really sharp students. But it only takes me five minutes or so to get students to PLAY dim7 chords in all keys, simply by pattern, feel, sound.

So all this fuss about notation is necessary, for those who are writing music, and I teach it. I am not in any way arguing with you or making light of the points you are making.

Instead I am trying to present the vast CHASM that separates the theoretical world of notation from the practical needs of all players who are merely reading music, charts included, with the intent of improvising but not setting down what they are doing on “paper”.

Finally this:

I fully agree. PP88 is essentially presenting the spelling demanded by VII°7 chords, with the preference of using the “mid-point” of expressing such chords as inversions, using a slash. Thus she is exactly in sync with what I teach, and I think with what you teach.

Again, I would only point out that any “inversion” of a dim7 chord will always be written with chord symbols that reflect the bass note, not the root. The important thing to remember is that chord symbols do not show function and so are used to represent “it is what it is” sound, which leaves us to be as precise as we wish about spelling based totally on experience.

Hi Gary,

YES! to all the above. I especially appreciate that quote from the venerable Dick Hyman, which I had not heard previously.

I would make this observation: For all the convoluted complications in TEACHING the diminished seventh chords, the actual (theoretical?) construction of each is quite simple:
(Following the convention for any chord construction, where you always build referencing the root) -
*Pick a root
*Superimpose a minor third
*Superimpose a diminished fifth
*Superimpose a diminished seventh

Obviously, I know you already know this, but perhaps others can benefit from it.

Ed

Thats the long way. I recommend using whole step instead of half step.

As we know a major triad consist of M3 + m3

M3 = 2 Whole Step
m3 = 1.5 Step

So

B to D# is a M3 because includes 2 whole step.
D# to F# is a m3 because includes 1.5 step.

If you wanna find C Major do the same

Find C first and add M3 to it so you are on E and add m3 to it you are on G.

GaryD. Sorry to jump in on a discussion that's over my head, but could you explain this:

"2) To use a practical example, the tune “What’s New” will start on D°7 to C or C6 or C something. That does not mean that the chord will be spelled D F Ab Cb. It simply means that this chord will move to C, and that demands the spelling of D FAb/B.

3) Again, this D°7 chord COULD be written as B°7/D, but I have never in my life seen that done. I DO recommend that students write it that way, as an intermediate step to bridge the gap between theory and practical needs, but always with the warning that they will see D°7 in practical usage."

Why is is that the chord before C is not really a D diminished 7th? If I'm playing the tune in a piano trio, by bass player will play D, which I gather is correct, but why does it matter how the chord I'll play is spelled?

Thanks!

There is another way to go about finding chords, and that is to find a "home base" chord, memorize it in all keys without notation, then associate the feel of the chord with the colors and the sound.

I teach all the chords mentioned here to kids by the end of elementary school, and the very youngest play major chords in all keys, but they do it this way:

C E G
F A C
G B D

All white

D F# A
E G# B
A C# E

Black note in middle, reverse oreo

Db F Ab
Eb G Bb
Ab C Eb

Oreos

Gb (or F#)

Gb Bb Db
All black, triple chocalate

Bb D F
B D# F#
Odd-balls

We just memorize these. While I am teahing major by rote, both hands ASAP, root position, I am also working hard on reading, so these chords start appearing in our music everywhere.

But teaching them apart from reading, getting them nailed down first, as a skill, allow me to move from this easy chord to minor, diminished, augmented, sus4, sus2 and sus4(add2).

Once major is in place, I simply add a note to form what is often called a dominant 7, in all keys, and we use that to "slither" to all other forms of the 7 chord.

It's the exact opposite of over-thinking. It relies on touch, feel and sound. The notation can come later, and I don't have to get into the theory of intervals, which is a HUGE can of worms.

Yes Gary. I do something similar. I call them chord shapes (straight line, tent, V, weird). I agree that mastering the major chords and then altering them to form other chords is the fastest way to learn. The only thing I do differently is when I teach 7ths, I teach students to drop it from the root. Pretty much any extension 7-13 I relate to one of the 3 triad notes. Much easier to see it that way.

And like you said, it's fast. I get most kids playing along with their favorite song in a few weeks. True, it's basic block chords, but they get excited and will practice more for you when they see results.

The answer: if you are an ear player and you see Ddim7 in a lead sheet, the D tells you what the bass is. If it is Ddim7 going to C, it will be spelled D F Ab B because of voice-leading. If you are reading music, an arrangement of "What's New", and the arrangement is in C, that's the spelling that will be used.

If you are reading the music, you don't care. If you are playing by ear, you don't care, most likely. If you are writing the music, you do.

But this opens up a HUGE can of worms. All this talk about something like Bdim7/D is only for spelling. THEORETICALLY dim7 chords are often taught first as "stacked". That means they are built every other letter: B D F A. D F A B can't be stacked. So stacking them gives us a function, VIIdim7, which is taught in theory. In the key of C a VIIdim7 is B D F Ab.

Looked at in this very specific way, D F Ab B is an inversion because the THEORETICAL root is B.

What makes our dim7 chord different is that it is NOTATED by the bass note, not the root. So if we write Bdim7/D, which is logical and helps some students who are analying and learning to write music, we write something that does not exist in letter notation.

In other words, you will see Ddim7, I will see Ddim7, we will both know how the chord is supposed to sound, and we will both know that the bass note is D.

I'm assuming your question is not really about how to play the chord, just why so much confusing junk is being written about it.

I don't teach ANY of this confusing theory to my beginning students. I teach them to play dim7 chords first, then to recognize them in music. We don't worry about spelling until problems occur in music, then we talk about them.

Sorry to have been confusing.

I am not the least bit interested in RE-opening that proverbial can, but for jjo's question, here is the theoretical problem to contemplate:

Any seventh chord must, by definition, have some sort of seventh above the root. (That's what makes it a seventh chord!) Where is our seventh in the stack D - F - Ab - B ?

It is the self-same problem in jazz theory as in classical. When Gary, or you, or I see the figure Dº7, we all THINK of it the same way. It is when we go to CONSTRUCT the chord, or to analyze the chord, that the messiness begins.

Ed

Brian, I do the same thing re 7ths, but I use the octave. Play C with the LH, play octave with RH and drop down two keys. It's almost instant. Play the four note chord with two hands, get comfortable with that, then refinger to play with LH if hand is big enough. Then "clone" into RH.

Then play them at random, once they are all there, kind of a primitive "parallelism". Add sustain pedal and a lot is learned.

The only "7" chord I don't teach that way is the dim7. Since I am teaching it by feel, look, sound, I start from a 6 chord, have them lower the two middle keys, example:

C E G A-->>> C D#/Eb F#/Gb A/Bbb. Since at this point I am not talking about spelling, I don't worry about the "grammar" part until we hit these chords in music.

By the way, I need to give Keystring credit for the term "grammar". I never thought of it, but it is a lot like grammar, I think, getting the spelling "right".

Ed, you are really not opening a can of worms. That can is already open.

There are at least three ways to go.

1) Teach the chord without notation, in which case the spelling is a non issue at FIRST.
2) Teach the chord without playing it, purely theory, in which case the spelling is crucial from the get-go.
3) Do both, in which case it is all about the timing of introducing principles.

If I am working with a talented seven year old who is successfully PLAYING a Cdim7 chord, it is rather obvious why I am not hammering on the C Eb Gb Bbb spelling. Will I get to that? Of course.

If I am working with an experienced player, tween teen or adult, I will immediately jump into the who dim7 problem, because it goes beyond the chord. It has to do with intervals.

As is true of an aug6 vs m7(intervals), the problem of dim7 vs M6 very soon becomes "the elephant in the room".

To me the can of worms is all about which worm you examine first.

The idea of starting with the term "fully diminished chord" was bandied about. I think that fits well with the student's first need which is to get a feel for what the chord's character is: the "thirds" (I'm including aug2 - hence quotation marks), the unique sound, characteristics, the total equal distribution within an octave. I'm staying with the idea of starting with physical experience and understanding, and then meshing it with the reading/writing aspect. They have to fit together hand in glove, rather than being two separate sets of knowledge.

The challenge is not for a teacher to know what it's about, because most teachers do (should). The challenge is to gradually bring all this together in a way where it will still make sense to the student and it won't lead to musical geekdom (a bunch of facts not connected to music.)

Obviously all of the grammar rules of music cannot be taught at once. Hence my suggestion for the beginning:
- understand the chord by experiencing it
- have the idea that there are many ways of spelling it which will still reflect this experienced "fully diminished" chord
- at some point the idea of enharmonics come up, and probably early. You run into it as soon as you hit any black key.
- eventually the spellings and their reasons will come up, but with the first two or three points in place, it won't be confusing.

You cannot teach everything at once.

The problem that I have run into with both method books and theory books is that because you cannot teach everything at once, they simplify things. The student will get the idea that the simplified picture they get is how music actually works. Then when they get to advanced music, it's confusing. It is also irritating to have to unlearn a picture that was carefully studied.

Ed: I understand that the following chord has a seventh: B D F A, whereas D F Ab B has no seventh (the B is a sixth). If you spell it D F Ab Cb does that solve the problem? I'm still not seeing why the chord is really B diminished over D, as opposed to D diminished properly spelled.

Sorry to be going back to this, but it the long discussion, this point interested me. I recognize that it doesn't affect what I'd play, but from a theory point of view I'm curious.

thanks,

jjo, there are two things involved. One of them is what a chord or interval is and does (what we hear, what the distance is between keys), and the other is how it is spelled. For fully diminished chords it depends on what is happening "grammatically" in the chord. (What key is it in, where is it going, what is its function, etc.)

The "naming" of chords usually goes by letters. A "seventh" is the seventh letter name of a chord. B(*)D(*)F(*)Ab(*)Cb means we are using letters 1,3,5,7 so according to the idea of "seventh", the spelling would have to be Cb. That is also why it is probably better to refer to this generically as a "fully diminished chord" to get around this.

In reality in music you will see all kinds of spellings for the chord that has this sound, and that series of intervals (in the sense of how many half steps) between the notes. That depends on the grammar (above).

For people learning to work with music, such as students learning to play written music or write out music, understanding what it is and how it works should be primordial.

Yup, jjo - problem solved!

Going back to what Gary wrote, he is working with some little ones who may not be ready to think in terms of Cb, and most are not ready for all types of intervals. Then, the problem of enharmonics magnifies itself as we get deeper into the flat keys. You, Gary, I, and many others, can instantly play a Gbº7; but I need to stand on my head to correctly spell it.

Ed

Ed, I once asked you in the teacher forum about teaching fundamentals. At the time you were giving a student some good advice on how to approach whatever question he had in music. But in order for the student to use your approach, that student had to draw on fundamentals in music, and therefore had to have these fundamentals. I asked how you would go about teaching these, and you wrote that you had hoped I might have an idea. As I understand, you have actually taught here and there, but it has been of students who already have these foundations. The giving of these foundations in a real meaningful way is a challenge.

I'm looking at this part:



I believe strongly that anyone of any age must first get foundations in a real and concrete way. The biggest mistake that is made with adult students is to teach abstract concepts right off the bat. Adults do reason abstractly and are used to concepts and theories. But this is wrong thinking. It becomes "head knowledge", divorced from music, and it interferes with being able to absorb what music is about. Adults who have never studied music need to draw on simple concrete experiences just like children.

I am capable of understanding the idea of Cb and the idea of "7". But if I start with these rules and exercise "musical algebra exercises" I will remain divorced from the actual picture. I have chosen not to go that route, and I think the results are generally positive.

At the same time, this forum is the "adult beginner forum". While it's a mixed group, many will be in an actual beginner starting place. At the same time, others may have gotten the cart before the horse in the sense of theory books and rules before experience.