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Re: why so little love for Mozart and Beethoven on this forum? [Re: Lord Blackmourne] #1956431
09/09/12 01:57 PM
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It sure is judgemental crap, Beethoven is NOT cheesy. Mazurkajoe, it's fine if you don't like Beethoven(although I feel a bit sorry for you there, at least if you cannot APPRECIATE him), but calling him cheesy is plain wrong. I am sorry, but that's is not about opinions, because basically, Beethoven is not cheesy, he is the opposite. Read a bit about him and how he developed as a composer smile

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Re: why so little love for Mozart and Beethoven on this forum? [Re: JoelW] #1956435
09/09/12 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by mazurkajoe
Originally Posted by Franz Beebert
No but it's true! He means, that if your statement(consistency) is what we base "the greatest composer on the piano" on, then we might as well say that Berg is the greatest, because he wrote only one Piano Sonata, and that is a masterpiece. Since his one and only Piano Sonata is a masterpiece, his consistency is very high, get it?


That's better.

But -- comparing Berg's one piece to Chopin's entire output cannot be taken seriously in terms of consistency. It's fallacious.

So I made a half-court shot in basketball once, does make me consistent at half court shots?
Am I wrong when I say that Chopin is far from being the greatest because of the following reason: He only wrote pieces for the piano.. That's about the same.

Re: why so little love for Mozart and Beethoven on this forum? [Re: Franz Beebert] #1956436
09/09/12 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Franz Beebert
It sure is judgemental crap, Beethoven is NOT cheesy. Mazurkajoe, it's fine if you don't like Beethoven(although I feel a bit sorry for you there, at least if you cannot APPRECIATE him), but calling him cheesy is plain wrong. I am sorry, but that's is not about opinions, because basically, Beethoven is not cheesy, he is the opposite. Read a bit about him and how he developed as a composer smile


Franz Franz Franz.. Beethoven IS cheesy. To me!.. do you not get that? I find his music cheesy in the same sense you hate Chopin's op. 9. Am I really going to sit here and explain why you SHOULD like op. 9? Heck no. It's all subjective.

Re: why so little love for Mozart and Beethoven on this forum? [Re: Lord Blackmourne] #1956437
09/09/12 02:01 PM
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Don't use the word cheesy

Re: why so little love for Mozart and Beethoven on this forum? [Re: Franz Beebert] #1956438
09/09/12 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Franz Beebert
Originally Posted by mazurkajoe
Originally Posted by Franz Beebert
No but it's true! He means, that if your statement(consistency) is what we base "the greatest composer on the piano" on, then we might as well say that Berg is the greatest, because he wrote only one Piano Sonata, and that is a masterpiece. Since his one and only Piano Sonata is a masterpiece, his consistency is very high, get it?


That's better.

But -- comparing Berg's one piece to Chopin's entire output cannot be taken seriously in terms of consistency. It's fallacious.

So I made a half-court shot in basketball once, does make me consistent at half court shots?
Am I wrong when I say that Chopin is far from being the greatest because of the following reason: He only wrote pieces for the piano.. That's about the same.


Who the he11 is arguing 'best composer'?

Re: why so little love for Mozart and Beethoven on this forum? [Re: Franz Beebert] #1956440
09/09/12 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Franz Beebert
Don't use the word cheesy


Why shouldn't I? It best describes the feeling I get when I listen to his music, no matter how great it is (which it is quite great). You seem to be interpreting 'cheesy' as an insult, when it isn't meant to be. It's the bare truth of how I feel. Can you not accept that? Does this not make me a serious musician? Must we all like the same things? What a boring world that would be.

Re: why so little love for Mozart and Beethoven on this forum? [Re: Lord Blackmourne] #1956442
09/09/12 02:06 PM
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The problem might lie in that you sound like you care when others disapprove of Chopin, yet when others express their disbelief about your opinion of Beethoven, you tell them to lay off because it's only your opinion.


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Re: why so little love for Mozart and Beethoven on this forum? [Re: Lord Blackmourne] #1956445
09/09/12 02:10 PM
09/09/12 02:10 PM
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WHAT AN AWESOME THREAD!!!!!!!!!!


Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
Re: why so little love for Mozart and Beethoven on this forum? [Re: Kuanpiano] #1956446
09/09/12 02:11 PM
09/09/12 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Kuanpiano
The problem might lie in that you sound like you care when others disapprove of Chopin, yet when others express their disbelief about your opinion of Beethoven, you tell them to lay off because it's only your opinion.


Yeah I see what you mean. I believe I acted this way in response to Chopin being dismissed as an incompetent composer, which is obviously not the case whether anyone likes him or not. I don't enjoy Beethoven, but I acknowledge his importance and his genius. I wouldn't dare call depict him as incompetent -- I just don't enjoy his music.

Re: why so little love for Mozart and Beethoven on this forum? [Re: Lord Blackmourne] #1956447
09/09/12 02:12 PM
09/09/12 02:12 PM
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I don't think Chopin is particularly consistent at all. He wrote some of the great piano masterpieces of the 19th century, he wrote a lot that is completely inconcequential in my opinion, and a lot in between.

Ravel is the most consistent composer I can think of for the piano. Also possibly for any medium.

Re: why so little love for Mozart and Beethoven on this forum? [Re: debrucey] #1956461
09/09/12 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by debrucey
I don't think Chopin is particularly consistent at all. He wrote some of the great piano masterpieces of the 19th century, he wrote a lot that is completely inconcequential in my opinion, and a lot in between.

Ravel is the most consistent composer I can think of for the piano. Also possibly for any medium.


How can we be so sure that his ecossaises or some of his more superficial sounding waltzes hadn't deeper meaning? Chopin was such an emotional character. Maybe his chipper music actually had meaning -- perhaps abrupt periods of happiness.

Re: why so little love for Mozart and Beethoven on this forum? [Re: Franz Beebert] #1956463
09/09/12 02:44 PM
09/09/12 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Franz Beebert
It sure is judgemental crap, Beethoven is NOT cheesy. Mazurkajoe, it's fine if you don't like Beethoven(although I feel a bit sorry for you there, at least if you cannot APPRECIATE him), but calling him cheesy is plain wrong. I am sorry, but that's is not about opinions, because basically, Beethoven is not cheesy, he is the opposite. Read a bit about him and how he developed as a composer smile

You're coming across just as defensive of Beethoven as Mazurkajoe is of Chopin. Perhaps the both of you should just drop it.

Re: why so little love for Mozart and Beethoven on this forum? [Re: Horowitzian] #1956465
09/09/12 02:49 PM
09/09/12 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Horowitzian
WHAT AN AWESOME THREAD!!!!!!!!!!

+1

I was waiting for you to say that!

Re: why so little love for Mozart and Beethoven on this forum? [Re: ando] #1956467
09/09/12 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by ando
Joe, you appear to be going around in circles now. You aren't saying anything new, just repeating your comments ad nauseum - presumably until people are in agreement with you. "Chopin is the greatest. etc.etc." You will just have to accept that a lot of people don't see it the way you do. Moreover, most people really don't care about ranking composers against each other. It boils down to specific pieces and what you feel about them. It's not a popularity contest. They're all dead anyway.

I've counted at least half a dozen people in this thread happily placing some composers above others and then arguing to defend their opinions, I'm not sure why one person is being singled out (not just by you).

I fall in line with a lot of people in regards to Mozart. He wrote some incredible music, but I prefer other composers when it comes to the piano. My interest in Beethoven ebbs and flows. I never thought I would be a fan of Liszt, but over the last couple of months I've been listening to his music almost exclusively, so taste can certainly change over time.

Re: why so little love for Mozart and Beethoven on this forum? [Re: pianoman76] #1956473
09/09/12 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by pianoman76
I'm not sure why one person is being singled out.


I'm used to it.

Re: why so little love for Mozart and Beethoven on this forum? [Re: Lord Blackmourne] #1956476
09/09/12 03:07 PM
09/09/12 03:07 PM
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Deep emotional meaning doesn't not automatically imbue a piece of music with quality of composition. When I say inconsequential I mean of little value artistically, however strongly Chopin himself may have felt about them. That is my personal judgement of a lot of his pieces. I never said, by the way, that I was referring to the pieces short in length or light in character. I happen to like the ecossaises. In fact, one of my biggest criticisms of Chopin as a composer is his sub par grasp of structure and motivic development, which is less of a problem in his smaller works than it is in the longer ones.

Re: why so little love for Mozart and Beethoven on this forum? [Re: Horowitzian] #1956488
09/09/12 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Horowitzian
WHAT AN AWESOME THREAD!!!!!!!!!!


I was REALLY hoping you would say that. laugh
Beethoven and Chopin are so different that I don't think they can be compared. They are just both great and have given us a wonderful gift and legacy.
.



[Linked Image]

Music is my best friend.


Re: why so little love for Mozart and Beethoven on this forum? [Re: JoelW] #1956497
09/09/12 03:54 PM
09/09/12 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by mazurkajoe
Originally Posted by Franz Beebert
It sure is judgemental crap, Beethoven is NOT cheesy. Mazurkajoe, it's fine if you don't like Beethoven(although I feel a bit sorry for you there, at least if you cannot APPRECIATE him), but calling him cheesy is plain wrong. I am sorry, but that's is not about opinions, because basically, Beethoven is not cheesy, he is the opposite. Read a bit about him and how he developed as a composer smile


Franz Franz Franz.. Beethoven IS cheesy. To me!.. do you not get that? I find his music cheesy in the same sense you hate Chopin's op. 9. Am I really going to sit here and explain why you SHOULD like op. 9? Heck no. It's all subjective.


So having given your opinion about 3 dozen times now, at what point do you let this rest? It's not a sensible debate anymore. It's you pushing and pushing because you aren't getting the agreement you want from people. There's not enough room for other perspectives while you are dominating things like this. I have no doubt that you'll have a typically petulant response, but I thought I'd put it out there...

Re: why so little love for Mozart and Beethoven on this forum? [Re: Lord Blackmourne] #1956500
09/09/12 04:01 PM
09/09/12 04:01 PM
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Quote
It's not a sensible debate anymore.


It never was. The OP was a trolling exercise, and if enough posters swallow it (hook, line, and sinker), then there can be no "sensible discussion" amid the bombs and debris of emotive opinion that gets hurled around.

Re: why so little love for Mozart and Beethoven on this forum? [Re: Piano*Dad] #1956514
09/09/12 04:41 PM
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+1

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