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http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-10-july-2012http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-10-july-2012http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-10-july-2012http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-10-july-2012Hi Weiyan, You have done a nice job, let's consider your last posting. The base: A3-A4: Ok, perhaps A4 can be a little wider… A3-D4: little slow D4-A4: Ok, D4 and A4 can be a little higher (in pitch) A3-E4: Very nice E4-A4: Ok, A4 can be a little higher Thirds progression: // Ok // Ok- a bit fast // slow // Ok- a bit fast // slow // nice-fast // Ok // Ok - too tense/salty // Ok So, B3-D#4 and C#4-F need to be improved. Check B3-E4... too just, B3 can go down. Check A#3-D#4… too fast, raise A#3 (improve A#3-F4, too just). C#4-F: F4 up? Check C4-F4... too just, raise F4... and A4. Check fourths: A3-D4: little slow A#3-D#4: fast, 2+ bps B3-E4: Ok, too just C4-F4: too just C#4-F#4: fast, check B3-F#4 (B3 must go down), check D4-F#4… F#4 down a bit D4-G4: Ok D#4-G#4: fast, check C#4-G#4… reverse? Put down G#4 also improves E4-G#4 E4-A4: Ok, you remember A4. All together you have improved a lot, Weiyan, and I hope you can hear those two slow 3rds (compare them and, if you wish, let me know) and G#4. You wrote: ..."The octave may be little bit wider."... Yes, you were right and you seem you are able to perceive also "fine" issues. ..."Tune the 12th pure. The mistake in temperament is reflected in octave when a note cannot tune pure 12th."... Correct, like 10ths, 15ths and 17ths... 12ths work as a good "meter" and as a confortable reference for the Pre-form tuning. Keep on thinking in terms of "whole" geometry and interweaving all intervals and... enjoy your tunings. Regards, a.c. .
alfredo
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Thank you.
Retuned the piano with Verituner ET, so can't check the G#4. I tuned the whole piano with Verituner to compare the sounding of ET with CHAS. For chords in higher octaves, CHAS seems rather calm. THis may due to inverted fifth progression.
Retuned the piano again next week.
Have a nice weekend!
Working on:\
J.S.Bach Prelude in C Min: No. 2 from Six Preludes fur Anfanger auf dem
Am Abend No. 2 from Stimmungsbilder, Op. 88
60s Swing No. 1 from Swinging Rhythms
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 888
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Working on:\
J.S.Bach Prelude in C Min: No. 2 from Six Preludes fur Anfanger auf dem
Am Abend No. 2 from Stimmungsbilder, Op. 88
60s Swing No. 1 from Swinging Rhythms
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 888
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Still working on better tuning.
Working on:\
J.S.Bach Prelude in C Min: No. 2 from Six Preludes fur Anfanger auf dem
Am Abend No. 2 from Stimmungsbilder, Op. 88
60s Swing No. 1 from Swinging Rhythms
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Hi, Now back from vacation. Thank you, Weiyan, for sharing your route, whenever... Regards, a.c. Chas Tunings: http://www.chas.it/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=64&Itemid=44&lang=en C.HA.S. Theory - RESEARCH REPORT BY G.R.I.M. - Department of Mathematics, University of Palermo - 2009, Italy: http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf Article by P.RI.ST.EM (Progetto Ricerche Storiche E Metodologiche) - University "Bocconi" - Professor Nicola Chiriano - Milano, 2010 - (Italian): http://matematica.unibocconi.it/articoli/relazioni-armoniche-un-pianoforte
alfredo
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Working on:\
J.S.Bach Prelude in C Min: No. 2 from Six Preludes fur Anfanger auf dem
Am Abend No. 2 from Stimmungsbilder, Op. 88
60s Swing No. 1 from Swinging Rhythms
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,404
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Hi Weiyan,
Let's work on your last post (second trial).
The base: All these five intervals (below) sound too pure (too still/no movement/no beat). In particular:
A3-A4: Very "just" (you want A4 on the wide side)
A3-E4: Too close to just
E4-A4: As above
A3-D4: As above (you want D4 wide, very close to 1 bps)
D4-A4: As above
Now, if we were to think in terms of "one-single-key and few intervals" (within one-single-octave) we may perhaps accept those "just" intervals, but really we want all keys and all intervals (no matter which octave) to sound in tune. As a consequence of "just" intervals we would get other intervals that are sensibly far from just, so missing the harmoniousness of the whole.
Thirds:
A3-C#4: Too sweet (too slow beating)
A#3-D4: Better than previous, still slow
B3-D#4: Ok (notice that it is much faster than A#3-D4)
C4-E4: Ok (notice that it is sweeter than B3-D#4)
C#4-F4: Fast (much faster than C4-E4)
D4-F#4: Ok (sweeter/slower than C#4-F4)
D#4-G4: Little slow
E4-G#4: Ok...
F4-A4: Too sweet
Fourths:
A3-D4: See base
A#-D#: Too wide (almost 3 bps)
B3-E4: Little too wide (almost 2 bps)
C4-F4: Ok
C#4-F#4: Slow
D4-G4: Fast
D#4-G#4: Slow
E4-A4: See base
Apparently you have had to raise D#4 very much.
Fifths:
A3-E4: see base
A#3-F4: too just... F4 down, you improve C#4-F4; C4 down, improve C4-E4 (and also E4 needed to go down a bit)
B3-F#4: fast (about 2 bps), F#4 up, improves C#4-F#4 and D4-F#4
C4-G4: Ok, both can go down a bit (remember E4, C4-E4, and F4)
C#4-G#4: Ok, both up a bit, improve A3-C#4 and D#4-G#4
D4-A4: See base
And you would remember that A3 and E4 and D#4 need to go down a bit (in pitch).
From your second last post:
..."The D4-G4 seems very stretch.
D#4-G4 not sure too fast or too slow.
Its rather difficult to hear bit in 4th octave.
Is it possible to use F3-F4 octave?"...
To me, D4-G4 sounds inverted (G4 should go up), and D#4-G4 is too slow. In general, make sure that the five Base-intervals are on the right side. And yes, do experiment other sequences (perhaps of your own too) and the F3-F4 compass, in which case I'd get to F3 as fast as possible, so to avoid piling up approximations.
How are you doing with 6ths, 10ths and 12ths?
Regards, a.c.
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alfredo
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Before today's correction exercise, I take measure of yesterday's tuning.
I am using Verituner with Average stretch.
A3: +2.3
A#3: +1.3
B3: 1.8
C4: +3
C#4: +0.6
D4: +0.2
D#4: +4.5
E4: +3
F4: +3.5
F#4: +0.3
G4: +3.3
G#4: +4
A4: +1.8
A3-A4 not stretched.
A3(+2.3):E4(+3): The fifth is not narrow enough. Is this interval need narrower than ET fifth?
E4(+3):A4(+1.3), not wide enough
A3(+2.3):D4(+0.2), not wide enough
D4(+0.2):A4(+1.8), not narrow enough
The reading justify the above intervals are quieter in ET sense.
Sorry I don't know how to use sixths yet.
I only use tenths to tune bass notes. Should I tune the 12ths pure?
Thank you.
Tune for better harmony!
Working on:\
J.S.Bach Prelude in C Min: No. 2 from Six Preludes fur Anfanger auf dem
Am Abend No. 2 from Stimmungsbilder, Op. 88
60s Swing No. 1 from Swinging Rhythms
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 888
500 Post Club Member
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500 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 888 |
Working on:\
J.S.Bach Prelude in C Min: No. 2 from Six Preludes fur Anfanger auf dem
Am Abend No. 2 from Stimmungsbilder, Op. 88
60s Swing No. 1 from Swinging Rhythms
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,404
1000 Post Club Member
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OP
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Posts: 1,404 |
Hi Weiyan,
You wrote: ..."Its far from OK as I heard. I am begin to recognize thirds."...
You are right, it's not Ok but... it is important that you can realize that yourself. You may listen again to these last recordings and notice some "very different" intervals, related to three notes: C4, D#4 and G4. Try to compare intervals, and try to focus on large, very evident differences caused by those notes. And the M3rd D#4-G4 is not so bad only because both notes are very high (in pitch). Also E4 has gone down too much, in fact A3-E4 is too narrow (about 2 bps). Do not worry if sometime you do not get a satisfactory result, this is how we learn and... sometime we regress as well.
On your second last post:
..."The reading justify the above intervals are quieter in ET sense."...
I'm not sure I understand what you mean.
..."Sorry I don't know how to use sixths yet."...
We can use M6ths like M3rds, comparing chromatic intervals and (their relative) beat-progressions; I also evaluate - aurally - their "taste", their "tension", whether it sounds "salty" (listen again to B3-D#4) or too "loose" (C4-E4). Start developing an idea of what 6ths can sound like, you can start from A3-F#4... then you will be able to compare A#3-G4, B3-G#4 and C4-A4.
..."I only use tenths to tune bass notes."...
Personally, I use 10ths also going up the scale, the first 10th being A3-C#5: that helps me evaluate the octaves (A#3-A#4 etc...) progressive stretch; A3-C#5 tells me the kind of curve I'm drawing while stretching octaves, until I get to the first 12th, A3-E5. From E5 up (and in general), 12ths are very "imperative" and yet easy to "evaluate". Going down the bass I use octaves, 4ths and 5ths and check with 10ths, 12ths, 15ths and 17ths.
..."Should I tune the 12ths pure?"...
Good question. Is "tuning" the tuning of... one interval? Hmmm... I do not think so. But if you find yourself far away from a pure 12th you may still improve your tuning. Chas 12ths beat (narrow) at a constant and very very slow beat-rate, but we may have good reasons for tuning pure or even wide 12ths, depending on the single piano's condition. Would you not regret having tuned "pure 12ths" if, at the end of your tuning, some 12ths were to sound flat?
As a general rule yes, try to stay very (very) close to pure 12ths.
Regards, a.c.
Last edited by alfredo capurso; 08/31/12 06:30 PM.
alfredo
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Thank you.
A plentiful content. I am digesting it.
"The reading justify the above intervals are quieter in ET sense."
I feel its very close to ET. They both have same character: harmony color is same for all twelve keys.
Last edited by Weiyan; 08/31/12 08:11 PM.
Working on:\
J.S.Bach Prelude in C Min: No. 2 from Six Preludes fur Anfanger auf dem
Am Abend No. 2 from Stimmungsbilder, Op. 88
60s Swing No. 1 from Swinging Rhythms
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 888
500 Post Club Member
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500 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 888 |
Ignore last post(1-Sep-2012).
This Sunday morning I played some chords, find the F chord offensive. Further deep into it, find A3-C4 offensive. Compared with other m3s, it has different character. Finally retuned whole temperament.
I learned use m3s to evaluate temperament this Sunday.
Than you.
Have a nice Sunday.
Working on:\
J.S.Bach Prelude in C Min: No. 2 from Six Preludes fur Anfanger auf dem
Am Abend No. 2 from Stimmungsbilder, Op. 88
60s Swing No. 1 from Swinging Rhythms
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 888
500 Post Club Member
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500 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 888 |
Working on:\
J.S.Bach Prelude in C Min: No. 2 from Six Preludes fur Anfanger auf dem
Am Abend No. 2 from Stimmungsbilder, Op. 88
60s Swing No. 1 from Swinging Rhythms
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,404
1000 Post Club Member
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OP
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Posts: 1,404 |
Hi Weiyan,
Very good job, you have sensibly improved all intervals. I'm glad you can also use m3rds and M6ths, as well as larger intervals... as you say they reveal any approximation and help perfecting both the "temperament" and the overall tuning-form.
Let's try to further refine your last tuning, by listening again to some intervals that can be improved.
The base:
A3-A4: Ok, now we hear some "movement"
A3-E4: Ok...
E4-A4: Ok, a little too wide...
A3-D4: Ok, it can be wider, closer to 1 bps
D4-A4: Ok...careful, it may be inverted
Thirds:
A3-C#4: Better than before, a bit slow
A#3-D4: Nice progression, although a bit slow
B3-D#4: Nice
C4-E4: slow, compare with previous… ready to check C4 (too high)
C#4-F4: Ok
D4-F#4: Ok
D#4-G4: Ok
E4-G#4: Ok
F4-A4: Ok...
Fourths:
A3-D4: See base
A#-D#: Fast (about 2 bps, check A#3-F4... check C4-F4... it's "just", down C4
B3-E4: Ok
C4-F4: Just, no beating...
C#4-F#4: Fast, check C#4-G#4... Ok, check G#4 (D#4-G#4)... too just, raise (a bit) C#4, G#4, A#3, F4
D4-G4: a bit fast, raise D4 but check F#4 (as a fifth and third), B3-F#4 is a bit too narrow, so raise also F#4
D#4-G#4: too just, compare (also in general) and make it similar to neighbors
E4-A4: little to wide, raise E4 just a little bit
And you would remember A#3... up a bit.
Well done, Weiyan, did you correct "aurally" or VT's?
Regards, a.c.
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alfredo
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Hi Weiyan,
You have done very well!
The base:
A3-A4: Good (*)
A3-E4: Ok (*)
E4-A4: Ok
A3-D4: Ok (*)
D4-A4: Ok
(*): While I'm tuning the base, I consider "normal" having to correct A3, E4 and D4. In the case above, A3 can go down a bit (with a Forte blow), so improving your base.
Fine corrections:
A3-A4: Good (*), a little bit shy, it can be a little bit wider
A3-E4: Ok (*), if A3 goes (a little bit) down, E4 can also go down a bit
E4-A4: Ok, you want this 4th a little faster
A3-D4: Ok (*), make it closer to 1 bps, if anything... abundant, you may adjust it later with a Forte
D4-A4: Ok
Thirds:
A3-C#4: Ok, sweet/slow
A#3-D4: slower than A3-C#4
B3-D#4: Ok
C4-E4: Ok...
C#4-F4: Ok...
D4-F#4: Ok...
D#4-G4: Ok
E4-G#4: Ok
F4-A4: Ok
Fourths:
A3-D4: See base
A#-D#: A little fast
B3-E4: Too just
C4-F4: Too just, check A#3-F4... too narrow, raise F4 and C#4
C#4-F#4: Nice, check B3-F#4... too narrow, raise F#4
D4-G4: a bit fast, raise D4, improves A#3-D4
D#4-G#4: Ok, slower than previous, raise G#4, this also improves C#4-G#4
E4-A4: Slow.
Try (in your time, no rush) to control fourths progression, take A3-D4 and E4-A4 as a reference and put all the other 4ths (bps) in between, progressively.
Have a nice day,
Alfredo
alfredo
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Hi Weiyan,
You wrote: …"I am practicing left hand tuning."…
May I ask you why?
…"I can move a hair little now."…
This is good, as we are getting into fine "hair" corrections, good for truly progressive beating and singing unisons.
…"Readjusted yesterday's tuning."…
Very good job indeed.
…"Used about three hours to tune F3-B4."…
Is that right, F3-B4 in about three hours? Hmmm… that would be far too long. Let me know if you can sing the note you tune… we might be able to sort out a faster procedure.
…"I think in coming days will focus on octaves."…
That's good. Let me know if you want to spend some time on your last recordings (6 Sept.).
…"Still not know how to use double octave + 7ths."…
That's quite straightforward: play (for example) C2-A#4, it beats very very fast… so fast that we cannot distinguish beats… go - chromatically - down the bass (slowly) until you can actually hear/distinguish beats (expect fast beating) and use them to order their progression. Slow-bps = bottom note is high in pitch; Fast-bps = bottom note is low. As mentioned, do not trust one single interval, use all intervals and beats that can help you to manage and "position" the bass pitch, use fifths, octaves, 10ths, 12ths, 15ths, 17ths and, not last, use your sense of "in tune".
Last edited by alfredo capurso; 09/07/12 01:29 AM.
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