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Re: Chopin Prelude in E minor Op. 28 No. 4 Study thread [Re: keystring] #1951619
08/30/12 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by keystring
A quick thought: maybe explaining less is better than explaining more? These chords slither and slide in the sense of individual notes moving down by half steps. Once in a while there are some solid spots; in particular the seven chords. I'd rather look at general movement and the occasional "hitching post".


Yes, absolutely! smile Looking at chords is the absolute last thing I want to do with this piece.



Richard
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Re: Chopin Prelude in E minor Op. 28 No. 4 Study thread [Re: zrtf90] #1951621
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I worked on this a while ago, the fast turn around was my weak spot.

Re: Chopin Prelude in E minor Op. 28 No. 4 Study thread [Re: keystring] #1951625
08/30/12 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by keystring

Simplicity is the key, and it is refreshing to even see the word "simple". It seems that the greater musicians tend to be "simple", and through it they create some marvelous things.


Well put I think, Keystring. While listening (not necessarily playing) it is the simplicity of this piece that strikes me.

A perfect example of the "less is more" factor.


Re: Chopin Prelude in E minor Op. 28 No. 4 Study thread [Re: zrtf90] #1951632
08/30/12 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by zrtf90

As to the French sixth, that looks like an Italian sixth (augmented sixth on flatted supertonic using D# as some scores have, e.g. Frederyk Chopin Instytut) in LH with the augmented 4th in RH. Doesn't that make it a French sixth?

Again, French 6th is FUNCTION, not SPELLING. And I am highly suspicious of whatever source shows a D#. That sounds like a CORRECTION by a theoretician, not the writing of Chopin. But if we accept that dubious spelling, it still does not resolve immediately, as a French 6th does.

A French 6th is built on the bVI degree of whatever key we are in at the moment, so if, for example, we are in E minor, the German 6th is F A C D#, if we follow conventions, but it is supposed to go IMMEDIATELY to either E7 (which MAY introduce parallel 5th problems) or opens up to Em/B, I6/4 in E minor.

The problem as I see it is huge: people have a tendency to derive rules from common sense solutions, then the rules are used to describe how music works, which is backwards. It works SO much better to intuitively figure out why this spelling or that spelling, this chord or that chord, becomes necessary because of musical context.

I don't teach this way, but your approach is forcing me to go somewhere I don't want to go, as a teacher. The F7b5 next moves to Bm7b5/F, half-diminished in 2nd inversion, but that's just not what I hear. Next TECHNICALLY you have an Fm6, but it spelled wrong (F G# C D), then FINALLY it slips to E7.

Does this help you? Does it help anyone else? It just doesn't help me. It's the very oppostive of "Keep It Simple".

I would simply "grab" the chords that are clear, like the F7b5, NOT give them a function, and say they are creeping down, like a snake, to E7.

That's what I hear, that's what my hands feel, and that's what the music is doing. I hear or sense points of tension and release, and the releases or tensions seem to revolve around the 7 chords. That's why the D7 in bar 7 is important, and the B7 especially important in bar 7. And so on.

I tried going through and doing a chord by chord analysis with students, and it failed miserably. Not only that, it actually disoriented me when the "slithering" was going on, because trying to give each sliding chord a name became theoretical and blocked my ear - and thus my memory!


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Re: Chopin Prelude in E minor Op. 28 No. 4 Study thread [Re: zrtf90] #1951638
08/30/12 04:44 PM
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Gary, apologies! It's Neapolitan on flat supertonic.

Old age, lack of practise, ailing memory.

Sorry. Please ignore.





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Re: Chopin Prelude in E minor Op. 28 No. 4 Study thread [Re: zrtf90] #1951645
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Originally Posted by zrtf90
Gary, apologies! It's Neapolitan on flat supertonic.

Old age, lack of practise, ailing memory.

Sorry. Please ignore.

Richard,

I'm not criticizing you or anyone else for a POV, and I didn't even cath "flat supertonic" because that's a term I just don't use. wink

I'm after a much bigger concept, namely that in music that is highly chromatic, and this is, that there are "power points", my word, where the composer is doing something very standard and very logical, but in between these points the notes in each chord slip and slide, creating incredible effects, and the decision to move "this note" or "that note" is not logical and often not defensible according to any logic. It is intuitive, and at some point we just have to say, "I wrote that particular note because it sounded cool."

I'm not arguing for no analysis/thought, because that leads to chaos, slows down reading, REALLY slows down learning and for people like me would make memorization impossible. (I have TERRIBLE visual memory.)

Clear?


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Re: Chopin Prelude in E minor Op. 28 No. 4 Study thread [Re: zrtf90] #1951829
08/31/12 12:36 AM
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I give up. I don't hear discordances for appoggiaturas anywhere. I don't hear specific waystations anywhere in the downward slide of chords. I think the last 2 or 3 chords constitute a cadence, but I don't know if I'm really hearing that or if I just think I'm hearing it based on practicing this piece and remembering what the chords are, and/or based on knowing it's the end.


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Re: Chopin Prelude in E minor Op. 28 No. 4 Study thread [Re: PianoStudent88] #1951844
08/31/12 01:51 AM
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Originally Posted by PianoStudent88
I give up. I don't hear discordances for appoggiaturas anywhere. I don't hear specific waystations anywhere in the downward slide of chords. I think the last 2 or 3 chords constitute a cadence, but I don't know if I'm really hearing that or if I just think I'm hearing it based on practicing this piece and remembering what the chords are, and/or based on knowing it's the end.

Suggestion: Forget about everything that has been said. You can play this piece, and you understand it. Understanding is about feeling the music, not about anything intellectual.

Then go back to basics.

We are in the key of E minor. We can go right back to basic RN theory, so let's do that a moment.

Our main players will, as always, be I IV and V. Use upper and lower case as you please. V in minor is always flexible, but we can at least expect, most of all:

Em = i
Am = iv
B = V

Now check out the ending, and lets assume for the moment that it starts around bar 19. I will use M for measure

M19 Bsus, Am, Vsus to iv
M20 Bsus, B, B7, Vsus, V, V7
M25 Em i

That's obvious.

Very often a German 6th or some kind of augmented 6th chord is used to delay, to soften and add an extention.

M21 builds a C7. That is normally a German 6th, C E G A#. But Chopin often does not use the traditional spelling when most of the chord is in one hand, so we can just call it bVI7, which is what a German 6th really is. You can even use bVI(#6) for the conventional spelling when it occurs, but this one really is bVI7, C7 in the key of E minor.

M22 I have that labeled as Bsus7, but probly Esus/B is better because it then goes to E/B to Em/B. Isus/B I/B Im/B. Notice that in RNs we HAVE to have both I and Im to be clear, because in sophisticated music the line between major and minor is always blurred. This is why I talk about "E-ness". The term does not work well for "A". wink

Now, lets pretend that M21 really is a German 6th, ignore spelling. Then it should to to either E/B or Em/B, and it does, with a couple sneaky slides. So we truly have Ger 6th to i6/4, textbook harmony, basic stuff. Chopin just prolongs it with the sus and the major before minor.

Them M23 is AGAIN a German 6th, AGAIN not spelled like one. Chopin is totally inconsistent in such matters, but you have to study ALL of his music to know that- and why. He is intuitive and uses whatever looks cleanest and most readable at the moment, so when there are two or more solutions that are like coin-flippers, one time he uses one, the other time another. It does not matter to him. It is his flexibility that often makes his music more readable than that of others. He was primarily self-taught and later, I suspect, just stuck to his guns!

So this M23 COULD have been spelled, from the bottom:

A# C G E. Composers are more likely to deviate from the German 6th spelling when the top note (7th or aug 6th) is in the base.

Try examining that part of the piece that way. Forget about appoggiaturas, forget about all sorts of complicated terms. The slithering stuff comes between the really obvious stuff, and you have to see and hear the basic chords before you start to sense how the in between slithering is just smoke and mirrors.

Last edited by Gary D.; 08/31/12 02:00 AM. Reason: too long, too complicated

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Re: Chopin Prelude in E minor Op. 28 No. 4 Study thread [Re: PianoStudent88] #1951854
08/31/12 02:08 AM
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Originally Posted by PianoStudent88
I give up. I don't hear discordances for appoggiaturas anywhere.

OOPS! Terms are being thrown around.

There are "sighs", and again and again Chopin's RH melody does things like:

B------------C, B--------------C, B

These are NOT appoggiaturas, because appoggiaturas stress NON-harmonic tones on the main beat and then move to a harmonic notes, usually but not always down.

Here the Cs are "upper neighbors", and I don't give a fig about that term. But the idea is that B is the main idea, and that going up to C and then back down again just addes color, and if you play C, B------------, over and over again, and think of someone sighing, or a ghost moaning, that should be the right idea. That is the reason the Cs are usually stressed more, played louder, to heighten the "moaning" feeling.

The only true appogiaturas are in M11 and M19. In the most respected autographs I've seen those little notes are always written with OUT a slash through the flag, meaning that they are played ON the beat. The timing of the second note does not quite follow Bach-like rules, since the little note should get half the value (8th note), but most players hit the little note on the beat and then follow BEFORE the next 8th in the LH. You can hear this with Tiempo, Solokov, others. Some will play it like a "grace" note, but most of these are older players and were playing in the 18th century traditions where the placement of such notes had changed, and information was missing.


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Re: Chopin Prelude in E minor Op. 28 No. 4 Study thread [Re: Gary D.] #1951877
08/31/12 03:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Gary D.
He is intuitive and uses whatever looks cleanest and most readable at the moment, so when there are two or more solutions that are like coin-flippers, one time he uses one, the other time another. It does not matter to him. It is his flexibility that often makes his music more readable than that of others. He was primarily self-taught and later, I suspect, just stuck to his guns!



- I'd say a fairly common practice for those who have to put pen to paper for the benefit of others….and the main reason I’m disinclined to overly concern myself with spelling niceties.

(lol! - to avoid any confusion I should say "niceties of spelling")

Last edited by dire tonic; 08/31/12 03:41 AM.
Re: Chopin Prelude in E minor Op. 28 No. 4 Study thread [Re: Gary D.] #1951901
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Originally Posted by Gary D.
Try examining that part of the piece that way. Forget about appoggiaturas, forget about all sorts of complicated terms. The slithering stuff comes between the really obvious stuff, and you have to see and hear the basic chords before you start to sense how the in between slithering is just smoke and mirrors.


And yet in between the basic chords I hear more chords, albeit sensitively modulated but drawn from the familiar ‘common’ subset of chords. Can you elaborate on ‘smoke and mirrors’?

Re: Chopin Prelude in E minor Op. 28 No. 4 Study thread [Re: zrtf90] #1951959
08/31/12 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by zrtf90

There are no trills or mordents in this piece.


It is curious that Jim mentions trill. When I listen to Martha, what she is doing in bar 16 kinda sounds like a trill. She is throwing a lot more notes in here then is in the score, for sure. Is that what the stretto thingy means?

Originally Posted by zrtf90

If bar 15 = bar 3 and 19 = bar 11 (we're looking at the melody only at this stage) work through, forwards and backwards, note by note to see what's happening in bb. 16-18.


I'm not exactly sure what I should be finding here. But here is preliminary analysis (in terms of melody only):

3=15
4 starts off similar to 16 (in terms of notes played) and then it is like implosion happening and we get to ...
m18 where the melody is very similar to m9-m10. Almost like we have condensed 7 measures into 3 in the second 12.
then ...
11=19


Last edited by Greener; 08/31/12 08:07 AM. Reason: had wrong bar# for stretto
Re: Chopin Prelude in E minor Op. 28 No. 4 Study thread [Re: zrtf90] #1951969
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Also, while I am stuck on notation. What are these tiny numbers about that are sometimes above treble and below bass?

Does this have something to do with what fingers I am suggested to use? Kinda makes sense in the beginning, but not later on.


Re: Chopin Prelude in E minor Op. 28 No. 4 Study thread [Re: zrtf90] #1951979
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Originally Posted by Greener
It is curious that Jim mentions trill. When I listen to Martha, what she is doing in bar 16 kinda sounds like a trill. She is throwing a lot more notes in here then is in the score, for sure. Is that what the stretto thingy means?

That's not a trill, Jeff, that's a "turn". The fourth semiquaver/eighth note in the left hand accompanies four notes in the right hand. There's a large backward S lying on its back above the bar the notes to be played here are the note above the last written note, B, then the main note itself, A#, then the note below it but which here is also double sharp, Gx, (note the little 'x' under the turn sign) and then the main note again: B-A#-Gx-A#, the actual keys being B-Bb-A-Bb and then fly up to the G for the second half of the bar.

This edition writes out the turn but changes some of Chopin's spelling (from Eb to D# in M3, for example) 24 Preludes, alt. Edition

Stretto means drawn together, or here, more quickly.

The 'implosion' is EXACTLY what you should be looking for.

If you look carefully you'll see most of the notes of M8-9 are repeated in M16-17 but with extras.

Yes, the tiny numbers are fingering suggestions that suit the editor's hand or that of a friend he knows. Very occasionally they may suit yours and even less frequently they'll be the composer's suggestion for bringing out the phrasing.

Don't ignore them without trying them first to see what they're trying to achieve/solve but don't treat them with too much respect.



Richard
Re: Chopin Prelude in E minor Op. 28 No. 4 Study thread [Re: zrtf90] #1951990
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Originally Posted by zrtf90

That's not a trill, Jeff, that's a "turn". The fourth semiquaver/eighth note in the left hand accompanies four notes in the right hand. There's a large backward S lying on its back above the bar the notes to be played here are the note above the last written note, B, then the main note itself, A#, then the note below it but which here is also double sharp, Gx, (note the little 'x' under the turn sign) and then the main note again: B-A#-Gx-A#, the actual keys being B-Bb-A-Bb and then fly up to the G for the second half of the bar.


Beautiful, will actually know what to play here now, instead of making up my own. Oddly enough I was pretty close.

Originally Posted by zrtf90

If you look carefully you'll see most of the notes of M8-9 are repeated in M16-17 but with extras.


Yes, I see. It was the extras that was throwing me off and could not account for.

Thanks, Richard. Making a lot of sense now.

Re: Chopin Prelude in E minor Op. 28 No. 4 Study thread [Re: zrtf90] #1952008
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What we have here, Jeff, is our old friend, the 5-4-3-2-1 descent to tonic (B-A-G-F#-E) but with a twist.

Note the musical devices he uses on the way. Like Adele's tear-jerker he begins with a "soft repetitive pattern". Chopin draws out the the descent using repeated notes over a slow chromatic descent in LH alternating suspensions and diminished sounds with regular seventh fare, but never settled, each time with a different harmony under the repeated melody note, another 'tingle' device.

What the chords are is completely irrelevant, it's their overall effect that matters, acting like failing lungs, breathing slowly in with tension and out with release as the melody sighs in "melodic appoggiaturas" as breath wheezing uneasily through the lips.

Bach did this with mathematical logic; Chopin is a poet and uses sound alone, no pattern, just what works from bar to bar to suggest that life is ebbing away.

The first time through the descent he uses a G# at the end of M8 to suggest he's going to G but in M10 he bypasses the G with an "unexpected deviation in the melody". We're disturbed.

In M11/M12 he reminds us again of the melody starting with the B as a grace note, falling through A, G and F#. Then, just as we're expecting the E, he skirts around it with another 'unexpected deviation'. Note the accent ' > ' on the C. More disturbance. He avoids the E and instead returns to B to start the second phrase.

From M15 he quickens the pulse with a more rapid change of harmony in LH and then, with a sudden "surprise in volume, timbre and harmonic pattern", the A is brief, the G "jumps up an octave", he reaches the climax of the piece with a dramatic rise in volume and intensity, compressing nine bars into two, or imploding, as you say, then once again everything falls away and we're gently calming down again towards the final E. Life is passing.

Only at the end of M20 does he finally settle on the E but without harmonic resolution until the final three bars. The delay of the final cadence is another tingle device. He teases us with it and waits while it hangs in the air and finally comes to rest in the last three chords.

Hans von Bulow called this piece 'Suffocation' but if you've ever had anyone die in your arms, their breathing comes in fits and starts as it slowly fades away and just before the end, like a baby falling asleep, they stir with one last big breath, then pause momentarily, and then silence. That sums up this piece for me.




Richard
Re: Chopin Prelude in E minor Op. 28 No. 4 Study thread [Re: zrtf90] #1952017
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Originally Posted by zrtf90

...
alternating suspensions and diminished sounds with regular seventh fare, but never settled, each time with a different harmony under the repeated melody note, another 'tingle' device. 

...
in with tension and out with release

...
quickens the pulse with a more rapid change of harmony in LH and then, with a sudden "surprise in volume, timbre and harmonic pattern", 

...
without harmonic  resolution until the final three bars. The delay of the final cadence is another tingle device. He teases us with it and waits while it hangs in the air and finally comes to rest in the last three chords.

You may be able to hear all that and believe that "what the chords are is completely irrelevant", but I can't hear it unless I actually name all the chords and allow the chord quality and relation to the key of E minor to give me some hints.  But that has been deprecated as "spouting chords".


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Re: Chopin Prelude in E minor Op. 28 No. 4 Study thread [Re: zrtf90] #1952021
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Originally Posted by zrtf90

Hans von Bulow called this piece 'Suffocation' but if you've ever had anyone die in your arms, their breathing comes in fits and starts as it slowly fades away and just before the end, like a baby falling asleep, they stir with one last big breath, then pause momentarily, and then silence. That sums up this piece for me.


I'm crying just reading this. It's really a beautiful piece. I have a lot more insight and respect of what makes it so, now.


Re: Chopin Prelude in E minor Op. 28 No. 4 Study thread [Re: zrtf90] #1952028
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Jeff, I'm so sorry, I didn't mean to elicit tears!

Hey, let's do a cheerful one next, huh?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFLkBpvs2_s

smile


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Re: Chopin Prelude in E minor Op. 28 No. 4 Study thread [Re: zrtf90] #1952036
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I'm game ... couldn't wait to get my dancing shoes on though ... laugh

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Re: Chopin Prelude in E minor Op. 28 No. 4 Study thread [Re: zrtf90] #1952042
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Originally Posted by zrtf90

What the chords are is completely irrelevant,


Have you been drinking?

Re: Chopin Prelude in E minor Op. 28 No. 4 Study thread [Re: zrtf90] #1952044
08/31/12 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by PianoStudent88
but I can't hear it unless I actually name all the chords

In this piece - as with the previous Bach piece - the names we give the chords are dubious and debatable. In this piece, more than in the Bach, the effect of the chords is easier to see in the dots on the page more than their names. Their slow chromatic descent is the relevant point.

Their names and relation to the tonic depend on which note has slipped to the bottom first and might be less applicable or appreciable than describing them as 'slightly lower'. They're not common chords and not as readily identifiable to the ear as common chords might be.

Naming the chords or reading the dissertations on them in this thread has not helped my understanding of this piece or even of the effect of the chord named.




Richard
Re: Chopin Prelude in E minor Op. 28 No. 4 Study thread [Re: zrtf90] #1952047
08/31/12 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by zrtf90
They're not common chords ...


Incorrect.

Re: Chopin Prelude in E minor Op. 28 No. 4 Study thread [Re: dire tonic] #1952048
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Originally Posted by dire tonic
Originally Posted by zrtf90

What the chords are is completely irrelevant,


Have you been drinking?


Yesh. smile

The names of the chords are completely irrelevant to me.



Richard
Re: Chopin Prelude in E minor Op. 28 No. 4 Study thread [Re: zrtf90] #1952059
08/31/12 11:43 AM
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In your post that I quoted, you referred several times to the effect of the harmony.  I don't know how you're getting to understand that effect.  The only two alternatives I can think of are that you're hearing it, or that you're identifying *something* about the chords by looking at the score.  But you dismiss looking at the chords, so I'm assuming you're hearing it.

I don't hear in that easy way.  I need preparation by examining the score.

You talk of tension and release.  Is that something that you (and I mean specifically you) just hear?  I don't hear it by just listening.  If I instead examine and name the chords, and find some chord names that fit into a tension/release pattern, I have a chance of trying to then listen for that point, and hopefully take a small step in training my ear to hear that better, just by ear, at some future time, perhaps in some other piece.  Along the way I will find a lot of chords where I will discover that I don't actually care about the chord name, and that the important thing is just the slithering down.  But I won't know that unless I examine the chord names first.

You mentioned the final cadence.  I won't necessarily be sure that's a standard cadence (or possibly slightly non-standard, I can't remember right now; IIRC there's something slightly odd in it) unless I examine and name the chords on the score.  I won't know that that's the only cadence in the piece, or whether there are other cadences in the piece, unless I examine and name the chords all the way through.

Gary talked about the chords slithering between certain specific waypoints, or power points.  I can't find that effect just by ear, and I can't find the waypoints just by looking at the score and having them jump out at me.  Again, I have to examine all the chords.

The chords have different qualities and different roots.  I'd like to try listening to the piece and try to determine if the quality makes a difference to the sound, and if the roots are significant or if simply the lowest note is more significant.  I can't experiment with listening that way unless I know the names of the chords.  Just because I don't hear anything when I'm unprimed by the names of the chords, doesn't mean there's nothing to be heard.  And it may be that that investigation won't turn up anything of interest to the final analysis, but I won't know that until I actually perform the experiment.  And I don't think anyone else can know that either without performing this investigation via chord names, unless they can *already hear* that it's not an important effect (or maybe it is an important effect), or if they can audiate the score at sight.  But the whole point is that I don't hear these things easily and I don't audiate scores to that level. (I can't tell a chord root or quality just by listening to it; I need to name the chord.)

It is possible that an approach which is useless to you, is useful to other people who start from a different set of strengths and weaknesses.


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Re: Chopin Prelude in E minor Op. 28 No. 4 Study thread [Re: zrtf90] #1952069
08/31/12 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by PianoStudent88
It is possible that an approach which is useless to you, is useful to other people who start from a different set of strengths and weaknesses.

You are right and I see that I have made a grievous oversight in my approach.

It was out of ignorance and lack of understanding.
I regret that I have been the cause of such unintended injury.



Richard
Re: Chopin Prelude in E minor Op. 28 No. 4 Study thread [Re: zrtf90] #1952076
08/31/12 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by zrtf90
Originally Posted by PianoStudent88
It is possible that an approach which is useless to you, is useful to other people who start from a different set of strengths and weaknesses.

You are right and I see that I have made a grievous oversight in my approach.

It was out of ignorance and lack of understanding.
I regret that I have been the cause of such unintended injury.


OK, back to your corners you guys.

Compromise suggested:

How about we name the easy ones and think about the slithering effect to get there.

To be honest PS88, I started out tying to identify/name the chords in the first line, then gave up after that in frustration. So was relieved not to continue exercise.

However, I believe I was likely going about it wrong.

Just a suggestion

Re: Chopin Prelude in E minor Op. 28 No. 4 Study thread [Re: zrtf90] #1952088
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Originally Posted by zrtf90
Originally Posted by PianoStudent88
It is possible that an approach which is useless to you, is useful to other people who start from a different set of strengths and weaknesses.

You are right and I see that I have made a grievous oversight in my approach.

It was out of ignorance and lack of understanding.
I regret that I have been the cause of such unintended injury.



If that isn’t an alcohol fuelled response I shall reluctantly drink what remains of this bottle (reaches over anyway).

PS88, Jeff and others who might be interested – I’ll post up the chords (as I find them) tomorrow unless you’d prefer to investigate a little longer amongst yourselves.

Re: Chopin Prelude in E minor Op. 28 No. 4 Study thread [Re: dire tonic] #1952103
08/31/12 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by dire tonic

I’ll post up the chords (as I find them) tomorrow unless you’d prefer to investigate a little longer amongst yourselves.


Thanks dt, no rush on my account. Unfortunately will be offline for most of the rest of today and this weekend. Back on Monday.

Have a great weekend everyone ...

Re: Chopin Prelude in E minor Op. 28 No. 4 Study thread [Re: zrtf90] #1952177
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Richard and I come at music from very different points of view and backgrounds. I am glad to be able to learn about music from Richard's point of view, and look forward to learning more. My approach is strongly coloured by the nature of my one formal music theory course, and the weakness in my explicit aural skills.

The music theory course I took was a course in harmonic analysis, so that's the tool I know best. There was an aural component to the course, which I suffered through and learned nothing from -- my fault, not the course's fault. I could identify things with the score in hand, but without the score it was pure torture for me and a complete guessing game to have to answer things like "what key is the B section in relative to the A section?". (answers would be things like dominant, relative minor, parallel minor). I spent the entire course, and several years after, under the misapprehension that a V chord sounds different in quality from a I chord (and struggling to hear that difference). Years later I realized that they're both major triads, and so in and of themselves they sound exactly the same; it's their relation to the key and a perceived tonic that makes them sound different. Well, I don't normally know how to perceive a tonic, so I'm still unable to aurally distinguish a V chord from a I chord, although now I think I might know what I'm supposed to be listening for. (Or maybe not; I might still be out in left field.). On the other hand, I'm a whiz at manipulating symbols, and remembering rules, so a certain form of paper harmonic analysis on certain kinds of pieces comes easily to me. I say that to try to explain where I'm coming from.

I really hope these kinds of study threads continue and that I'll continue to be able to learn from Richard's and others points of view.


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