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Joined: Sep 2007
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Shorts, stocks , options and puts ... Shorts are optional.
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Shorts, stocks , options and puts ... Shorts are optional. I take it back ... you dudes look like quintuplets
"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva) Disclosure : I am professionally associated with Arturia but my sentiments are my own only.
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If we're talking classical music, I can't imagine anyone would prefer a DP over an acoustic grand, if the acoustic is reasonably in tune and even in action. Even the best DP currently available for the classical pianist (who values responsiveness, tonal and dynamic control and sheer expressiveness over any bells or whistles), the V-Piano/Grand, cannot quite simulate all the nuances you can find from a good grand 6ft or over, or the biggest uprights. You can play as softly as you want (or blast your ears out, and those around you ) on acoustics, if you have good keyboard control: most classical music is played at moderate volume - classical pianists caress the keys rather than thump the keyboard from high, except when required - but requires a very wide dynamic range from pppp to ffff (or eight f's if the composer is Ligeti), and you need to be able to encompass the whole range. On the other hand, if your interest is other kinds of music, maybe a DP will be a better choice. You can amplify as much as you like (especially if you're playing with over-enthusiastic drummers and/or brass players ), without having to use any more muscle strength, and you have lots of other sounds to play with. And you can turn the volume right down to play at home without having to 'play' softly - though I don't recommend that if you're serious about piano (as opposed to 'keyboard') playing.
If music be the food of love, play on!
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I am 'doremi' because I play scales My teacher is 'domisol' because he plays chords
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I have just received my new Kawai CS9, and am extremely pleased with it, both tone and action. Also, I can already see some advantages for practising classical music on a DP - one button recording, so I can play a passage, listen to it, and immediately hear that I really should play these notes legato, and those notes more lightly, etc.
Kawai CS-9
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Cs9 , Nice...any pics ? I know the official KAWAI website pics, but in a 'real' room it's always nicer...
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Problem is, you will ALWAYS over time find several shortcoming with your DP, and still realize that in terms touch, tone and nuances a good quality acoustic will win every time.
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If the world goes apocalyptic, it's much harder to burn a plastic DP for warmth ... Of course APs are better -- when pushed off a cliff, they make a much more satisfying crash!
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This Moonraker scene would not have quite the same "impact" without a real grand piano....
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Digital is more practical for me, and often I prefer to compose at night so I can use headphones. I also like having a variety of sounds and/or being able to edit reverb, brightness etc..
Kawai Es8 Korg Nautilus 61 Yamaha P125 Arturia KeyLab MKII Yamaha CK61
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"Am I the only guy to prefer digitals??"
I have both. They can hardly be compared as if they were the same thing.
You'll find a fair amount of agreement that modern pianos are made and voiced so they'll 'pop' in the showroom, but will often overwhelm in the home music room. Some piano designers (Del, for example) are rebelling and making pianos that may be harder to show, but are easier to live with. Back in the day, clavichords and proto-pianos were very low-volume, and of course there were no amps or mikes back then, so the push was on to make them loud enough to play for a concert hall full of ticket-buying audience members. That line of development worked out so well that a big concert grand can hold its own with a whole orchestra, or make your ears ring for three days if you sit in the first twenty rows.
I've learned that for ordinary practicing in my very live living-room, the grand sounds best with the music rack sitting on top of the closed lid. We don't always want to practice on tiptoes, being ever so careful not to dig into the keys too hard--- in fact, I don't think that's a good way to develop dynamic technique; you want the whole range, not only of volume, but also of touch and tone color. Nor is over-amping the ears til we're deaf as a post, so good for musicians--- but that's a real hazard with many kinds of instruments. Anything that's loud and played close to the ear (flute, violin, horn, piano, pipe organ [stretching a point], IPod, jackhammer). So-many-hours-a-day at so-many-dB = hearing loss.
Hey--- if you love your DP, you love it--- who could argue with that? And no, I don't think you're the only guy prefers digitals. It's a question of where, and for what. Either will come up short sometimes, and either will beat the other sometimes.
Clef
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There`s been some great responses! What does it for me I tHink, is the sustain pedal. In the formative years of the piano, they may well have tried to eradicate the resonance of the other strings which sound somewhat when the pedal is pressed. And failed! Subsequently, it has been regarded as a "desireable feature" to which digital pianos have gravitated. I believe Technics were selling such an instrument (stretch tuned as well) many years ago. I prefer my pianos without unwanted resonances.
It all sounds rather like adopting the religion of your parents without investigating it`s validity insofar as you are able. . . . In short, piano manufacturers have adopted the faults of their predecessors wrt to this part of the package.
Just a thought, but I have been known to be wrong! I`m sure you`ll let me know . . .
"I am not a man. I am a free number" " "
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There`s been some great responses! What does it for me I tHink, is the sustain pedal. In the formative years of the piano, they may well have tried to eradicate the resonance of the other strings which sound somewhat when the pedal is pressed. And failed! Subsequently, it has been regarded as a "desireable feature" to which digital pianos have gravitated. I believe Technics were selling such an instrument (stretch tuned as well) many years ago. I prefer my pianos without unwanted resonances.
It all sounds rather like adopting the religion of your parents without investigating it`s validity insofar as you are able. . . . In short, piano manufacturers have adopted the faults of their predecessors wrt to this part of the package.
Just a thought, but I have been known to be wrong! I`m sure you`ll let me know . . . Just letting you know - you are wrong! The glorious resonance of a good acoustic piano is very much one of its strengths. To have it described as a fault or a myth carried down through ignorance is quite bizarre to my way of thinking. I think only somebody who has learned piano on a digital and doesn't know how to control that resonance would say this. Which is quite common actually - people who learn to play on a digital WILL over pedal. It's quite a shock when you play a real piano, just how lively and resonant they are. The usual result is very loud, very mushy and unclear. Pedal technique is a very important skill on an acoustic. Most digital-only players also struggle to control dynamics because they have used the volume knob to control that. Anyway, I have no problem with you preferring digitals. Whatever floats your boat - but resonance is very desirable to people who love acoustic pianos.
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I think only somebody who has learned piano on a digital and doesn't know how to control that resonance would say this. Which is quite common actually - people who learn to play on a digital WILL over pedal. It's quite a shock when you play a real piano, just how lively and resonant they are. The usual result is very loud, very mushy and unclear. Pedal technique is a very important skill on an acoustic. Well, let's not overstate things here. It's absolutely true that someone who has learned on a digital will likely overpedal (hold it down too much), but the principal cause of that is the unnaturally short decay of most digitals, not their (in some cases) lack of sympathetic resonance, which is what Peterws appears to be describing. Anyway I think it goes a little far to assert that heavy-duty sympathetic resonance is a universally desired trait in acoustics. After all, good digitals now implement it, and I, at least, do not turn that nob up higher than its default settings. It's a characteristic of acoustics that we are accustomed to, which is why we have it implemented in our digitals, but I can see room for dissent on its desirability. Pedal noise (thunk) is also a trait of acoustics, but not one I find desirable, so authenticity in this respect is not sufficient to prove desirability. There's a tradeoff between clarity and richness. I'm not sure the mix of those two you find in digitals is unambiguously worse than that of acoustics.
Last edited by gvfarns; 08/29/12 09:54 PM.
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There's a tradeoff between clarity and richness. I'm not sure the mix of those two you find in digitals is unambiguously worse than that of acoustics.
GV, I think you've missed my point a little bit. I don't believe a good grand has a tradeoff between clarity and richness. It is capable of both. What I have noticed is that people who only play digitals lack the ability to get the balance right when they sit at a grand. That means their own perceptions of what a grand can do is skewed by their own technical limitations. Btw, I consider short decay and lack of resonance to be part of the same issue. In either case, leaning on the pedal becomes habitual in the search for a bigger richer sound. It doesn't actually increase the length of the decay, but it adds resonance to make up for it. The fact that clarity manages to still be there even with heaps of pedalling speaks to the digital piano's lack of richness. Of course, there are exceptions like the V-piano which has all the decay and resonance in the world.
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Of course, there are exceptions like the V-piano which has all the decay and resonance in the world. And, that is one of the reasons I decided to buy one... As for modeling parameters, it is simply the best.
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The glorious resonance of a good acoustic piano is very much one of its strengths. To have it described as a fault or a myth carried down through ignorance is quite bizarre to my way of thinking. I think only somebody who has learned piano on a digital and doesn't know how to control that resonance would say this. Which is quite common actually - people who learn to play on a digital WILL over pedal. It's quite a shock when you play a real piano, just how lively and resonant they are. The usual result is very loud, very mushy and unclear. Pedal technique is a very important skill on an acoustic. Most digital-only players also struggle to control dynamics because they have used the volume knob to control that.
Anyway, I have no problem with you preferring digitals. Whatever floats your boat - but resonance is very desirable to people who love acoustic pianos.
DP players presumably dont over-pedal when they are playing a DP. You may only see that problem when they on rare occasions play a grand. Just possibly a Yamaha grand player will take a while to play a Steinway correctly - one always needs to adjust to a different instrument. Anybody playing a piece with two hands cannot control the dynamics by twiddling the volume button. I tend to set the volume low when doing exercises and scales and learning the notes of a piece, then crank up the volume for actual playing. This spares my ears as well as everybody else in the house.
Kawai CS-9
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The glorious resonance of a good acoustic piano is very much one of its strengths. To have it described as a fault or a myth carried down through ignorance is quite bizarre to my way of thinking. I think only somebody who has learned piano on a digital and doesn't know how to control that resonance would say this. Which is quite common actually - people who learn to play on a digital WILL over pedal. It's quite a shock when you play a real piano, just how lively and resonant they are. The usual result is very loud, very mushy and unclear. Pedal technique is a very important skill on an acoustic. Most digital-only players also struggle to control dynamics because they have used the volume knob to control that.
Anyway, I have no problem with you preferring digitals. Whatever floats your boat - but resonance is very desirable to people who love acoustic pianos.
DP players presumably dont over-pedal when they are playing a DP. You may only see that problem when they on rare occasions play a grand. Just possibly a Yamaha grand player will take a while to play a Steinway correctly - one always needs to adjust to a different instrument. Anybody playing a piece with two hands cannot control the dynamics by twiddling the volume button. I tend to set the volume low when doing exercises and scales and learning the notes of a piece, then crank up the volume for actual playing. This spares my ears as well as everybody else in the house. Yes, I agree with everything you said there. I was referring to what happens when a digital player gets on an acoustic piano.
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Ando - if I ever do get a good chance to play a grand, I will remember to take it easy on the pedal!
Here is the scenario: my lady and I stay at modest hotels while on holiday, but in the afternoon often go to the posh 5* places nearby for a bit of tea, cake, and luxury. In these hotels there is invariably a large room with a 9 foot grand, often unguarded. The task is to slip in and play some cheesy cocktail music, so that staff wandering by think I am the evening's entertainment just stretching the fingers. After a bit of this I can then play what I want. Someday!
Kawai CS-9
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Ando - if I ever do get a good chance to play a grand, I will remember to take it easy on the pedal!
Here is the scenario: my lady and I stay at modest hotels while on holiday, but in the afternoon often go to the posh 5* places nearby for a bit of tea, cake, and luxury. In these hotels there is invariably a large room with a 9 foot grand, often unguarded. The task is to slip in and play some cheesy cocktail music, so that staff wandering by think I am the evening's entertainment just stretching the fingers. After a bit of this I can then play what I want. Someday! It's amazing what you can accomplish with a bit of pure boldness. When I was in Weimar, Germany, about 12 years ago, I visited Franz Liszt's residence which happened to contain his recently rebuilt Bechstein grand which he composed a lot of his music on. I was the only one there and at one stage the usher got a phone call and went outside to take it in privacy. I seized the day, so to speak. I watched her walk a distance away from the house, then I jumped on that Bechstein and went to town on it! It was glorious. It took the usher about 2 or 3 minutes to return, then she realised what was happening and came bounding up the stairs shrieking in German, "No, no, you can't do that!". I just pretended I couldn't read the signs and acted dumb, even though I could speak German just fine. Never mind the fact that I had to step around a sturdy velvet rope to even get to the piano... She was mortified but I left there with a grin and satisfied that I got to bash out a tune on Liszt's piano. As I say, boldness can be very rewarding...
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Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:34 PM
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Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:23 PM
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