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Re: Feurich vs Hailun
elil #1948619 08/24/12 05:03 PM
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My guess is the proverbial question to "why can't we all get along" is akin to
Professor Higgins saying "why can't a woman be more like a man?" smile

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Doz5w2W-jAY

Last edited by Bob Newbie; 08/24/12 05:06 PM.
Re: Feurich vs Hailun
BoseEric #1949001 08/25/12 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by BoseEric
Wow...Mike Carr is picking on me!! I must have made it into the big time!


Woo-hoo!! Way to go Eric! thumb


Rich Galassini
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Re: Feurich vs Hailun
Rich Galassini #1949086 08/25/12 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Rich Galassini
Originally Posted by BoseEric
Wow...Mike Carr is picking on me!! I must have made it into the big time!


Woo-hoo!! Way to go Eric! thumb

And here is your T-shirt.
[Linked Image]


Sam Bennett
PianoWorks - Atlanta Piano Dealer
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Re: Feurich vs Hailun
elil #1949114 08/25/12 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by PianoWorksAtl
And here is your T-shirt.
[Linked Image]

Now that's hard to beat, Sam. smile

I wonder if Mike realizes just how popular he is around here. smile

Rick


Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
Re: Feurich vs Hailun
Rickster #1949125 08/25/12 08:01 PM
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For Norbert:


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Dave Koenig
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1927 Knabe 7' 8" grand
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Re: Feurich vs Hailun
elil #1949436 08/26/12 04:02 PM
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This childish taunting should be beneath all of you. You especially Rick, who keeps asking for civility. If Mike Carr's acerbity and pointed posting style are not your cup of tea, ignore him and keep mashing the "report" button as it suits you.

good day,

Kurt


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Co-owner (by marriage) and part time customer service rep at an electronic musical equipment repair shop.
Re: Feurich vs Hailun
elil #1949442 08/26/12 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by KurtZ
This childish taunting should be beneath all of you. You especially Rick, who keeps asking for civility. If Mike Carr's acerbity and pointed posting style are not your cup of tea, ignore him and keep mashing the "report" button as it suits you.

good day,

Kurt

Glad we can all have our say... and, you are probably right; I should not have joined in; but, to be honest, the tee-shirt thing did make me chuckle a little, and I saw no harm in it.

Mike Carr is well known for his fiery and flaming opinions and has no qualms about speaking his mind… and, I’m quite sure he can take a joke.

Rick


Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
Re: Feurich vs Hailun
elil #1949557 08/26/12 08:54 PM
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Ganging up on Mike to beat him up, is unlikely to get you where you expect; these things can have a way of backfiring. Going too far is a time-tested comedic technique, and I'm sure Mike can take a joke--- I'm just not sure I heard one.

I want one of those t-shirts--- but you can leave pianoloverus off, and I'd like to see some color, a v-neck collar, and an eye-catching graphic. Furiously typing fingers, and the flat-screen belching smoke and flames, Carr's face in profile with a devilish smile. Now, that's a t-shirt.

Of course, he's not exactly a household name, and it would take a tiresome amount of explaining anywhere except a Pianoworld convention (and I have never heard of such a thing, nor imagined one).


Clef

Re: Feurich vs Hailun
elil #1949614 08/27/12 12:08 AM
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[Linked Image]


Sam Bennett
PianoWorks - Atlanta Piano Dealer
Bösendorfer, Estonia, Seiler, Grotrian, Hailun
Pre-Owned: Yamaha, Kawai, Steinway & other fine pianos
Full Restoration Shop
www.PianoWorks.com
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Re: Feurich vs Hailun
elil #1949624 08/27/12 12:22 AM
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I am a regular lurker on the piano forum and I got something on my mind. Pianoloverus follows Norbert around from post to post like he is on a witch hunt. What in the heck is Norbert supposed to do when he relates stories from his own experience?? Is he supposed to never ever talk about his product lines or relate stories about them to avoid this dumb "ESP" crap from you? I wish there was a way for me to put you on ignore for your Norbert follow up posts because other than that, you are an interesting poster. I have read some really good stuff from you in the pianist corner.

Jason


“Whether You Think You Can Or Think You Can’t, You’re Right.”- Henry Ford
Re: Feurich vs Hailun
elil #1949709 08/27/12 09:10 AM
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Cool shirt, Sam. Scary--- it's me, all right. I'd recognize him anywhere.:)


Clef

Re: Feurich vs Hailun
pianoloverus #1949734 08/27/12 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Mike Carr
Why isn’t post factory prep best done in the customers home as in the case of Steinway and Shigeru?
Because most pianos will not sound/play that good without a reasonable amount of prep and many buyers would not want to choose a piano based on how they hoped it would sound/play.

Shigerus and Steinways are not unprepped when they come from the factory and are also prepped by dealers(Steinway maybe less than some other makes or moe depending on the particular dealer). Shigeru offers additional in home prep by one of their master techs to improve the piano further and customize it more.


I'm going to attempt to get this thread back on track which may prove to be as difficult as steering the Titanic around an iceberg, but her it goes....

In my town the Steinways at the local dearler are not well prepped. I believe it greatly reduces their sales. I used to live in a town where the Steinway dealer did a great job of prepping the instruments. The difference between what the two dealers have on their floor is stunning. That tells me that dealer prep is very important. Now if Feurich (and you should hear how I pronounced that in my head as I typed it) has a special specification for dealer prep that Hailun (another pronounciation in my head that would make Rich roll his eyes) doesn't have I could very well see that there would be a real difference between the two. Maybe I should just consider a Cunningham as it is much easier to pronounce and I know Rich does a great job of prepping his pianos.


Knabe 5'2" Louis XV Walnut circa 1927
Very part time piano broker.
Re: Feurich vs Hailun
elil #1949741 08/27/12 10:22 AM
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Koo-ning-haahm?


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
Re: Feurich vs Hailun
elil #1949921 08/27/12 04:22 PM
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Thanks for trying Pianolance.

I really understand the average piano buyers confusion about "prep". Here is one way to think about it:

1 All pianos would benefit from some degree of prep. Sometimes that prep is needed to make the keys work, sometimes it is needed to allow a piano to produce ear-melting levels of pianissimo. However every new piano benefits from some degree of prep, just like every home piano would benefit from work beyond a simple tuning. Where the point of diminishing returns is is a judgement call.

2. Prep costs somebody money, and nobody wants that money to come out of their pocket. It takes time by a trained professional - there is no way around it. The manufacturer, frankly, does as little as they can get away with and wants to pass the rest on to the dealer. The dealer would prefer to do as little as possible to get the piano sold, which, frankly, the dealer cannot be blamed for. To some dealers that idea of "as little as possible" means nothing, to some it means 10 hours.

3. If you can't hear or don't care about the difference, then prep has little value to you and you should seek out the lowest price. You will have lots of choices, so one shouldn't go on a forum and suggest that people who do value it are getting "ripped off".

If you can hear the difference and care about it, then you should seek out a brand and dealer that supports those values.

The problem is that unless you know what a piano should sound like (and few people really do) it is very hard to evaluate the condition of a piano and whether or not it needs prep or if it has had some. Therefore, trust in your manufacturer, dealer and technician is the substitute.

I don't know what Hailun does and don't really care. At Feurich our strategy is to prep each piano to ensure a particular sound and quality standard. Right now it's easy. If sales take off it will be more of a challenge, but we have a plan for that!

Re: Feurich vs Hailun
BoseEric #1949964 08/27/12 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by BoseEric
The problem is that unless you know what a piano should sound like (and few people really do) it is very hard to evaluate the condition of a piano and whether or not it needs prep or if it has had some. Therefore, trust in your manufacturer, dealer and technician is the substitute.
(My bold)Exactly.

IMO unless one has played many different examples of the same make/model at many different dealers and is also a high level pianist or tech, it is extremely difficult to know about the quality of the prep. One might recognize fairly obvious problems but I think most buyers can only get a very general idea of the prep quality at best.

I think many pianists can judge that they "liked" a particular piano's touch or tone, but that might not even be related to how much prep work was done on. Very few would know if an action they like the feel of could be made even better.

This reminds me of a story I think I read in Franz Mohr's book. Some very famous pianist left a few paper notes on the piano in Steinway's basement about which notes he thought needed to be voiced so they did not stand out from the others. Mohr said the pianist missed many notes that needed this adjustment.

When posters write things like "They prepped my piano to the fullest" or "Every piano in the store was prepped to the nines", I think in most cases(including my own)a relevant question would be "How do you know?"

Last edited by pianoloverus; 08/27/12 05:39 PM.
Re: Feurich vs Hailun
elil #1949999 08/27/12 06:36 PM
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"... in most cases(including my own)a relevant question would be "How do you know?""

I read it on the internet. Duh!


Clef

Re: Feurich vs Hailun
elil #1950041 08/27/12 08:37 PM
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To give an example for perspective, Bosendorfer is known for their out-of-the-box quality. Ask any dealer, they will all have examples of when they unboxed a Bosendorfer and could put it on the floor without having to even tune it! Bosendorfer spends a great deal of time and, therefore, money ensuring this experience.

However, if a Bosendorfer staff technician was tasked with unboxing and preparing this same piano, he (or she, but unlikely in Austria) would spend a MINIMUM of 4 to 6 hours working on the piano. I know this because I not only saw it done many many times, it was my job for 5 years.

While at Yamaha I witnessed the delivery of CFIII's and S4's and S6's at Yamaha Artist Services in NYC, all arrived sounding TERRIFIC. Still the staff concert tech would spend a MINIMUM of 4 to 6 hours making it even better.

Now these pianos all were of high enough quality that this effort paid off in a result. The real challenge is finding the point of diminishing returns for both the piano and the customers budget. Easy to talk about, not so easy to do, especially in the current economic climate.

My own experience confirms that of Franz Mohr. Frequently the specific adjustments requested are the least of the problems a piano might have. That's not to say they weren't noticeable or important..they clearly were. But other needed adjustments weren't specified because the pianist didn't know how to describe it, or simply accepted that the problem with repeating, or the clunky feeling in the key was just a characteristic of that particular piano, rather than jack position or a damper upstop rail that needed attention.

Re: Feurich vs Hailun
BoseEric #1950056 08/27/12 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by BoseEric
unless you know what a piano should sound like (and few people really do)


Can you elaborate on this further? Are you saying there is an objective standard? If I say that, in general, I prefer the tone of Kawai over Yamaha, does that mean I'm a cloth-eared dolt for not preferring the tone of __________? (fill in your favorite piano make here)

Originally Posted by BoseEric
At Feurich our strategy is to prep each piano to ensure a particular sound and quality standard.


This appears to contradict the previous statement. So I'm confused. (Unless you actually mean all other pianos should sound like Feurich!)

dB


David M. Boothe, CAS
Re: Feurich vs Hailun
elil #1950075 08/27/12 10:20 PM
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Hi db

Really great point.

I'm talking about piano technology, not piano design. A pianos components need to be constructed and assembled in a particular way to get the best sound out of the design. This means, for example, the keys must be level and travel down a particular and consistent amount. The hammers must be shaped and mated to the strings. The strings must be level, the repetition springs must be adjusted correctly and on and on. These steps, collectively called regulation + voicing, but also called prep when done to a new piano, must be completed, theoretically, to bring out the tone and touch that the designers intended.

These steps are universal to all modern actions and understood to be common practice. It is the degree of finesse employed that can vary.

Before you decide you like Kawai over Yamaha, for example, make sure you are evaluating well prepared examples of each, so the Kawai is as Kawai as it can be, and the same for Yamaha.

Re: Feurich vs Hailun
BoseEric #1950105 08/27/12 11:56 PM
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BoseEric,

Thanks for the explanation.

Originally Posted by BoseEric
These steps, collectively called regulation + voicing, but also called prep when done to a new piano, must be completed, theoretically, to bring out the tone and touch that the designers intended.


This makes sense and i see what your meaning was.

BTW, my preference for Kawai over Yamaha is real and based on years of hearing and playing many instruments of both makes. Of course, you'll notice that I own neither.

dB


David M. Boothe, CAS
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