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Temperament system comments requested #1948862
08/25/12 07:32 AM
08/25/12 07:32 AM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 6
NSW Australia
M
MakeANote Offline OP
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MakeANote  Offline OP
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 6
NSW Australia
Could I please request some feedback to the perceived pros / cons of a temperament system as follows - particularly points of weakness.

A4 (fork)
A3
F3 (7bps with A3)
F4
Contiguous 3rds F3A3 A3C#4 C#4F4
F3A#3 slightly wide
F#3A#3 (compare with F3A3)
F#3B3 (compare with F3A#3)
G3B3 (compare with previous 3rds)
G3C4 (compare with previous 4ths, F3C4 and ladder of 3rds)
G#3C4 (compare with previous 3rds, G#3C#4)
A3D4 (check A#3D4 3rds, G3B3 with F3D4)
A#3D#4 (check B3D#4 3rds, G#3C4 with F#3D#4)
B3E4 (check as above)
C4F4 (check as above)

Thank you.


A.Mus, B.Mus, Dip.Mus.Ed
Pianist - Teacher - Tuner
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Re: Temperament system comments requested [Re: MakeANote] #1948866
08/25/12 07:45 AM
08/25/12 07:45 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
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Olek Offline
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France
I used a similar sequence for years .

very precise progression of 3ds

No regulation of the 5th and 4ths in the octave size.

If you use the sequence but consider than 5ths and 4ths are more important than 3ds probably the result will be better and you will avoid incoherence at the slow beating intervals level.

I prefer to regulate my first octave with 4ths and 5ths, then use the 3ds vernier as a tool.

When a tuner have alot of experience with 3ds based sequences, he can tune simply with 3ds, with accepteable results, but the focus on slow beating intervals is more on the musical side, to me.



Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Temperament system comments requested [Re: MakeANote] #1948901
08/25/12 09:27 AM
08/25/12 09:27 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,481
Niagara Region, On. Canada
Emmery Offline
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Emmery  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,481
Niagara Region, On. Canada
Markanote, you may want to visit this site for an alternative temperament sequence. I use a slightly modified version of this and its quite good for opening up numerous checks along the way to keep it on track and minimize back tracking.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2424528/Every-Which-Way-Temperament-Swafford


Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region
Re: Temperament system comments requested [Re: Emmery] #1949004
08/25/12 01:36 PM
08/25/12 01:36 PM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 534
Oregon Coast
T
TunerJeff Offline
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TunerJeff  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 534
Oregon Coast
I agree with Kamin. Your sequence does not address octave size, and plucks the location of your second set of thirds out of mid-air with no establishment of where they should be in relation to the first set (...or ladder) of thirds.

You may end with two ladders of clean sounding thirds that are separated by a wildly beating set of 4ths and 5ths. In other words; F-A-C#-F are nicely accelerating thirds. And F#-A#-D-F# are nicely accelerating thirds. But a check of F3 to A#3, which reaches between your ladders of thirds, may show a 4th that has 2 or 3 beats per second, and a 5th from F4 down to Bb3 that is beating as badly or worse. Your A to A and F to F octaves have not been 'sized' or checked either. What you are doing may lead to huge problems as you expand away from a relatively nice sounding temperament.

I also use a 4th/5ths temperament, and then use the thirds to refine the result. It is the slow wide intervals that let me know that the faster beating 3rds and 6ths are correctly spaced.

Working with your basic idea; I'm fine with the beginning, but you need to throw a few 4ths/5ths into the mix!

Once you have your A-A established; verify it with octave checks and then plant the D4 squarely where you want it.

A3 to D4 4th and D4 to A4 5th should have the same beat rate.

Once you like the F3 to A3 third set, and build your first ladder of contiguous thirds from F3 to F4, verify the octave with checks and then plant the Bb3 right between them. The lower 4th and upper 5th should be the same beat rate.

Get the idea? Once you have planted those 'anchors' of A-A and F-F with a solid D in there....you can then play with 3rds to get what you want, and know which end of the third to modify to get the sound you want. Because you KNOW that these notes will not be moving (....that's why I call them 'anchors') it is easier to figure out how to bend the thirds into shape.

So, you can work your thirds temperament from there and have some reasonable hope that the two ladders (F-A-C# and F#-A#-D) are somewhat in touch with each other. ;>) But, I will continue to use 4ths/5ths to 'lay the bearings' and use 3rds to refine.

My sequence;
A-A
D4 as a 4th up/5th down
G3 as a 5th down
C4 as a 4th up
F3 as a 5th down
F4 as an octave up
Bb3 as a 4th up/5th down
Eb4 as a 4th up
Ab3 as a 5th down
C#4 as a 4th up
F#3 as a 5th down
B3 as a 4th up
E4 as a 4th up

Lots of checks along the way...but you get the idea. A benefit of this approach is that all 5ths are tuning the lower note, so you pull it sharp and slow it down to where you want it, and all the 4ths tune the upper note, so you pull it sharp and slow it down to where you want it. Good pin technique is a bonus. At least...it works for me!

One simple note; remember that interval beat rates double every octave. Your F3 to A3 may beat a 7-beats so your F4 to A4 should be at 14-beats. Ditto for EVERY interval beat rate as you go up the keyboard. Simple, but useful. Octave up? Double the rate.

Your mileage may vary,
Sipping the Costa Rican coffee,
I am,
the armchair quarterback,


Jeffrey T. Hickey, RPT
Oregon Coast Piano Services
TunerJeff440@aol.com
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Re: Temperament system comments requested [Re: MakeANote] #1949013
08/25/12 01:49 PM
08/25/12 01:49 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 26,895
Oakland
B
BDB Offline
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Oakland
In the end, what matters is how well everything comes out when you are finished. So check it over then. If the results are good, fine. If they are not so good, but you can correct it, that works, too. If the results are bad, and you cannot correct it, then maybe you have to consider other things.


Semipro Tech
Re: Temperament system comments requested [Re: MakeANote] #1949063
08/25/12 04:14 PM
08/25/12 04:14 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,625
Philadelphia area
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Dave B Offline
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Philadelphia area
Jeff, I like to play the F3-A3 and F4-A4 thirds together. The feel of the M3rds beating with the min6th in between can give more info than beat counting.


"Imagine it in all its primatic colorings, its counterpart in our souls - our souls that are great pianos whose strings, of honey and of steel, the divisions of the rainbow set twanging, loosing on the air great novels of adventure!" - William Carlos Williams
Re: Temperament system comments requested [Re: MakeANote] #1949068
08/25/12 04:23 PM
08/25/12 04:23 PM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 534
Oregon Coast
T
TunerJeff Offline
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Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 534
Oregon Coast
Dave,

Nice! But, I should say that I never try to actually COUNT the dang beats. It is all relative...more feeling and increasing ratios than tying to decide if it's 6.8 bps, or 6.9. In that direction lies madness. I was just pointing out that there are simple ways to see of you are completely off the (....ready for joke?) beaten path.

This is quicker than that, this is slower, this is just right between them. No numbers, or exact counting ever....just fitting the patterns and feelings into sense. At this point I'm tuning as much by instinct as 'numbers'...it is actually hard to define what the heck I'm doing to someone else. Part of the reason I try is that it helps me to understand it myself. :>)

Really!


Jeffrey T. Hickey, RPT
Oregon Coast Piano Services
TunerJeff440@aol.com
Re: Temperament system comments requested [Re: TunerJeff] #1949077
08/25/12 04:36 PM
08/25/12 04:36 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
O
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Olek  Offline
9000 Post Club Member
O

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
Originally Posted by TunerJeff
Dave,

Nice! But, I should say that I never try to actually COUNT the dang beats. It is all relative...more feeling and increasing ratios than tying to decide if it's 6.8 bps, or 6.9. In that direction lies madness. I was just pointing out that there are simple ways to see of you are completely off the (....ready for joke?) beaten path.

This is quicker than that, this is slower, this is just right between them. No numbers, or exact counting ever....just fitting the patterns and feelings into sense. At this point I'm tuning as much by instinct as 'numbers'...it is actually hard to define what the heck I'm doing to someone else. Part of the reason I try is that it helps me to understand it myself. :>)

Really!


When the tuner learn to keep his ears quiet he does better because he listen more to the piano and less to a theoretical pattern. then he gain a sense of "its right".

And indeed that is difficult to describe or analyse (but there is a sense for Fast beating intervals, and a sense for slow beating ones, a sense for resonance by sympathy coming from the rest of the piano too)



Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Temperament system comments requested [Re: MakeANote] #1949082
08/25/12 04:50 PM
08/25/12 04:50 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
O
Olek Offline
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Olek  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2008
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France
@tunerJeff,
.
the even rate of 4th and 5thin the first octave is limiting your octave size to one fixed size only

Other possibilities exists and I clearly use that one : the lower 4th is beating more than the upper 5th.

The first octave is then opened in a way that allows a very smooth progression of the FBI, and the tuning is then beginning with some kind of "overpull" . As I will tune then on the center string for all the mediums and the beginning of the treble, it allows to work inclueding the lowering that will happen when the unisons will be tuned.

Keeping that method routinely allow to get a "feel" for the amount of give that the piano is providing.

the 5ths are supposed to get cleaner and cleaner when raising to the treble with that start (and the upper limit is given by the 12th it is pure , at some point in the 5th octave, eventually a little more if the piano is really low in pitch.




Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Temperament system comments requested [Re: Dave B] #1949084
08/25/12 04:53 PM
08/25/12 04:53 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
O
Olek Offline
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Olek  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2008
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France
Originally Posted by Dave B
Jeff, I like to play the F3-A3 and F4-A4 thirds together. The feel of the M3rds beating with the min6th in between can give more info than beat counting.


you can also play the full ladder of thirds F3 A4.

the unbalanced one(s) can be noticed that way (with a little ear training)


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Temperament system comments requested [Re: TunerJeff] #1949088
08/25/12 04:58 PM
08/25/12 04:58 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
O
Olek Offline
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Joined: Mar 2008
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France
Originally Posted by TunerJeff
I agree with Kamin.

Lots of checks along the way...but you get the idea. A benefit of this approach is that all 5ths are tuning the lower note, so you pull it sharp and slow it down to where you want it, and all the 4ths tune the upper note, so you pull it sharp and slow it down to where you want it. Good pin technique is a bonus. At least...it works for me!



good thinking and good habit.

for the doubling of speed at each octave it may depend of the iH and cannot be taken too precisely, unless you tune for a predefined tuning pattern respecting ratios.

I better allow the piano to drive that part, and only temper it if it is really too far out.

The room's acoustic influences a little too the "octave stretch"


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Temperament system comments requested [Re: MakeANote] #1949120
08/25/12 06:32 PM
08/25/12 06:32 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,219
Olympia, WA
rysowers Offline
3000 Post Club Member
rysowers  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,219
Olympia, WA
The approach that I have found most helpful is one where you avoid relying on long chains of intervals that will tend to compound errors.

My sequence starts out just like yours: Tuning the octave and then building a stack of contiguous thirds and coaxing them to progress as evenly as possible within your given octave size.

Speaking of octave size, I like to use D4 to tell me where my A3-A4 octave is at: I like A3-D4 4th to beat *slightly* faster than the D4-A4 5th. If I'm having trouble hearing, I temporarily make the D a little sharp to give me clearer beat speed to listen to. Around 3 beats per second is very easy to hear.

Then I go ahead and tune the 4ths and 5ths inside the A-A octave and the F-F which will give you A#, C, D and E. I consider this the end of "temperament phase #1" I don't move on until all the intervals tuned up until this point are very close and well-balanced.

If you look at your octave as the foundation of the temperament, when tuning a new note, you want to avoid using reference pitches that are too far removed from that foundation. In fact, with the exception of D#, no note in the temperament is more than 2 steps away from your A3-A4 foundation. If you stay aware of whether each note is one, two, or three steps away from the foundation, you will diminish the accumulation of errors when setting your temperament.

"Temperament phase #2" is accomplished by tuning the rest of the notes that are only 2 steps away from the foundation, or one step away from the notes in "Temperament phase #1". These notes are F#, G, G#, B. The last note tuned should be D# since it is the only note that is 3 steps away from the foundation.

I think of setting temperament like building a house - the initial octave is the foundation, the "Temperament phase #1" is the framing of the house that sits on the temperament. Phase #2 is adding the plywood that is attached to the framing. If your foundation has a problem, your whole house will be off kilter. So don't frame the house until the foundation passes inspection. Likewise don't start putting up the sheeting if the framing is screwed up.




Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net
Re: Temperament system comments requested [Re: rysowers] #1949172
08/25/12 10:35 PM
08/25/12 10:35 PM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 534
Oregon Coast
T
TunerJeff Offline
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Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 534
Oregon Coast
<<So don't frame the house until the foundation passes inspection. Likewise don't start putting up the sheeting if the framing is screwed up.Ryan Sowers,RPT>>

Ryan,

So....is getting good unisons like cutting the grass? Maybe?
Or just hanging the gutters, perhaps? :>)

I like the solidity of the temperament you describe. Never being far from a 'solid' point. Building from known positions. Having some assurance that you won't be re-tuning 4 notes to correct an error you didn't realize early enough. Another bonus I see to yolur description is a fully tuned temperament that is wider than an octave in size. A tuned octave and a third with all interior notes spaced. All good, sir!

I'll take it under advisement...and work it after I lay on my 4ths/5ths to get me to a reasonable starting point. Ha!

Smiling,
I R,


Jeffrey T. Hickey, RPT
Oregon Coast Piano Services
TunerJeff440@aol.com
Re: Temperament system comments requested [Re: MakeANote] #1949207
08/26/12 02:06 AM
08/26/12 02:06 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,219
Olympia, WA
rysowers Offline
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,219
Olympia, WA
TunerJeff,

Good to hear from you old friend, ex-director, and all around good fellow!

In regards to unisons - since I tune them as I go, I think of them as my bubble level and measuring tape. I like to hear intervals with all strings open, and find that the "unisons shimming" or "cracking" technique gives me a higher level of perscision then listening to a strip-muted piano.

In regards to octave size - I take a guess but often have to change my intention based on how the contiguous intervals cooperate, in conjunction with the 4ths and 5ths inside. I suppose one of the main goals of "temperament phase #1" is to reconcile octave width with progression of 3rds.

Trimming the grass? Maybe that's the "tighten the bench and clean the keys" phase of the tuning! Often overlooked but very important! thumb


Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net
Re: Temperament system comments requested [Re: rysowers] #1949231
08/26/12 04:40 AM
08/26/12 04:40 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
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Olek Offline
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Olek  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
Originally Posted by rysowers
TunerJeff,

Good to hear from you old friend, ex-director, and all around good fellow!

In regards to unisons - since I tune them as I go, I think of them as my bubble level and measuring tape. I like to hear intervals with all strings open, and find that the "unisons shimming" or "cracking" technique gives me a higher level of perscision then listening to a strip-muted piano.

In regards to octave size - I take a guess but often have to change my intention based on how the contiguous intervals cooperate, in conjunction with the 4ths and 5ths inside. I suppose one of the main goals of "temperament phase #1" is to reconcile octave width with progression of 3rds.

Trimming the grass? Maybe that's the "tighten the bench and clean the keys" phase of the tuning! Often overlooked but very important! thumb


yes, strip muting imply having a coherent process to rely on.

shimming the unisons begins to be possible to me when enough of them are tuned and I am in the 5 th octave +-

Last edited by Kamin; 08/26/12 04:41 AM.

Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Temperament system comments requested [Re: MakeANote] #1949674
08/27/12 06:05 AM
08/27/12 06:05 AM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 6
NSW Australia
M
MakeANote Offline OP
Junior Member
MakeANote  Offline OP
Junior Member
M

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 6
NSW Australia
Thank you for the many replies and suggestions regarding different temperament styles and considerations.

Kamin - thanks for your thoughts regarding 4ths and 5ths and their musical value coinciding with 3rds.

Emmery - thank you for the link to the materials by Swafford - great reading.

TunerJeff - thanks for your points. The issue of the initial 4ths and lack of checks at this point has been something that I've been trying to work with - I appreciated you sharing some further considerations.

I've really appreciated the prompt responses to issues presented on this site - thanks to the community for your help smile

Ian


A.Mus, B.Mus, Dip.Mus.Ed
Pianist - Teacher - Tuner
Re: Temperament system comments requested [Re: MakeANote] #1949679
08/27/12 06:27 AM
08/27/12 06:27 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,886
Bradford County, PA
UnrightTooner Offline
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Posts: 5,886
Bradford County, PA
Mark:

The problem with any temperament sequence that uses a ladder of thirds is what happens when encountering scaling breaks. Although many tuners will disagree with me, the thirds must have a jump in beatrates for the fifths and octaves to sound their best.

Now I see no reason that someone cannot start with a ladder of thirds and then make adjustments later (as BDB suggests). But it is a problem to be aware of.

Myself, I tune with fifths and octaves and use all the other intervals as checks.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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