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Originally Posted by mazurkajoe
Honestly, I think it's totally fine. No matter what drug you take, it will not effect your understanding of the music (which is the most important thing). If these drugs produce positive effects on the technical side of things, then great, but they don't effect the art of it all. I would rather listen to Horowitz on one of his average days than to hear Lang Lang play after using 'enhancements'.

PS: The real way to play better naturally is to get plenty of sleep every night, exercise daily (30-60 minutes) and eat a VERY HEALTHY diet. No human can be at their best without doing so.


I just want to point out that, while understanding of music is important, its the execution of what you understand that counts. A pianist can have great understanding but lacks the focus and concentration to execute it, especially for long pieces which one needs a lot of mental power to really hold it together.

Last edited by teccomin; 08/26/12 12:19 PM.
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Originally Posted by jdw
I think the point Old Man was making is valid, aside from the word "enhance." If any of these substances improve musical performance, it would seem to be by increasing the chances that a player would perform at his/her best, rather than changing that "best" into something beyond what s/he could normally do.
If someone is always nervous and this always affects their performance adversely, then the drugs would possibly change the performance into something beyond what s/he could normally do.

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In my limited experience, audiences tend to not care about HOW you got to the level of your performance, they don't care if you're sick or if you practiced enough or if you shut off your social life for a month prior to the performance. Surprisingly they tend to care about the result more than anything else. So why should it matter who was taking what?



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Originally Posted by Pogorelich.
In my limited experience, audiences tend to not care about HOW you got to the level of your performance, they don't care if you're sick or if you practiced enough or if you shut off your social life for a month prior to the performance. Surprisingly they tend to care about the result more than anything else. So why should it matter who was taking what?


Good points; most of the time we don't know how the performer got his/her performance to the level it is. If, however, we knew that the performance was "enhanced," would that make a difference to our reaction to it?

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Originally Posted by mazurkajoe
How is art only partially subjective? confused


There's a thing called music theory. Music can be looked at objectively.

BTW, there probably is also a placebo effect in work with some drugs.


Working on

Chopin: op. 25 no. 11
Haydn: Sonata in in Eb Hob XVI/52
Schumann: Piano concerto 1st movement
Rachmaninoff: op. 39 no. 8

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Originally Posted by Pogorelich.
So why should it matter who was taking what?
Because there are health and, for some, ethical issues involved with no easy answers on either side. That's why there was a lengthy article in Clavier magazine about this that I mentioned in my OP, and the conservatory that Debrucey attends has a course or lecture(I can't remember which)on this topic.

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Originally Posted by Verbum mirabilis
Originally Posted by mazurkajoe
How is art only partially subjective? confused


There's a thing called music theory. Music can be looked at objectively.

BTW, there probably is also a placebo effect in work with some drugs.


Yeah..... music theory isn't art.

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Originally Posted by carey
Originally Posted by mazurkajoe

Remember the end goal for piano playing is ART.

Could you please be a little more specific????

MJ - Still waiting for a response.... smile


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Originally Posted by carey
Originally Posted by carey
Originally Posted by mazurkajoe

Remember the end goal for piano playing is ART.

Could you please be a little more specific????

MJ - Still waiting for a response.... smile


Oops. Well, I don't really know how to answer your question.

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Originally Posted by wr
Originally Posted by Kuanpiano
Originally Posted by mazurkajoe
How is art only partially subjective? confused

Well in performance art, there's a score to adhere to. Everyone reflects the score through their own performance and insight, but still, the score is an absolute. And if it's there...objective comments can be made about a performance.

There are all kinds of formal and cultural considerations in classical music that are objective rather than subjective. One easy example: the compositional techniques and rules Bach used in writing fugues.

Originally Posted by mazurkajoe
Originally Posted by Verbum mirabilis

There's a thing called music theory. Music can be looked at objectively.


Yeah..... music theory isn't art.


So ART is ART no matter HOW it is created????? And whether something qualifies as ART is purely subjective? And there is no such thing as bad ART or good ART because ART is simply ART ???? smile

Last edited by carey; 08/26/12 04:12 PM.

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I agree with Pogorelich. If their performance makes me weep (in a good way), I really don't care what they're on. Seriously, I'm not going to feel cheated.

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Originally Posted by carey


So ART is ART no matter HOW it is created????? And whether something qualifies as ART is purely subjective? And there is no such thing as bad ART or good ART because ART is simply ART ???? smile


Bingo.

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Originally Posted by NikkiPiano
I agree with Pogorelich. If their performance makes me weep (in a good way), I really don't care what they're on. Seriously, I'm not going to feel cheated.
A regular audience member is probably not going to care or know whether a particular performer uses any drugs. The issues, pro and con, come to play in terms of ethics(competitions or any competitive situation which includes many regular performances) and in regards to health.

Just because audience member A probably won't care about performer B's health during a performance doesn't mean the possible health issues are not important. Just because some competition musicians don't care about whether other competitors use drugs doesn't mean none of them do. If none felt that way the topic wouldn't come up for discussion.

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If you guys are arguing the ethics of pianists using performance enhancers due to HEALTH, then just stop. You can't say "it's wrong because it's unhealthy". If you're going to take THAT stance, then you might as well take McDonald's to court. Fast food shouldn't be legal. It's hardly food.

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FOOD is FOOD no matter how it is created. And whether something qualifies as FOOD is purely subjective. And there is no such thing as BAD FOOD or GOOD FOOD because FOOD is simply FOOD.

Bingo ????? crazy


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Originally Posted by carey
FOOD is FOOD no matter how it is created. And whether something qualifies as FOOD is purely subjective. And there is no such thing as BAD FOOD or GOOD FOOD because FOOD is simply FOOD.

Bingo ????? crazy


*facepalm*

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Originally Posted by mazurkajoe
If you guys are arguing the ethics of pianists using performance enhancers due to HEALTH, then just stop.
The ethical and health issues are separate.

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A musical performance is a contract between the pianist and his or her audience. If the pianist is three sheets to the wind, drooling on himself, and playing Chopsticks when he should be playing Scriabin, the audience will signal its dismay (in a variety of ways), and he will probably not see them again. But if the pianist is three sheets to the wind and still delivers a bravura performance, the audience will be on its feet, and all is well.

What any of this has to do with ethics and health escapes me.

Last edited by Old Man; 08/26/12 08:02 PM.
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Originally Posted by Old Man
What any of this has to do with ethics and health escapes me.
If you read my OP I mentioned a few of the ethical and health issues. The lengthy Clavier article has many more. And much discussion pro and con and in between.

None of these issues has anything to do with how an audience might experience a concert, but that was never the point.

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Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by Pogorelich.
In my limited experience, audiences tend to not care about HOW you got to the level of your performance, they don't care if you're sick or if you practiced enough or if you shut off your social life for a month prior to the performance. Surprisingly they tend to care about the result more than anything else. So why should it matter who was taking what?


Good points; most of the time we don't know how the performer got his/her performance to the level it is. If, however, we knew that the performance was "enhanced," would that make a difference to our reaction to it?

Regards,


Does the fact that Wagner was a Nazi [censored] change your reaction to his music? Should it?



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