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Musical analysis and story behind Winter Wind etude #1935966
08/01/12 04:54 PM
08/01/12 04:54 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,286
Lodz, Poland
Mati Offline OP
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Mati  Offline OP
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Joined: Nov 2005
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Lodz, Poland
Hi guys!

I have a favour to ask. I am looking for some materials on Chopin's Winter Wind etude, preferably on the web, both in terms of structural analysis and a good shot on the story conveyed in the etude as well.

A friend of mine is working on a video clip for this etude and he is having some serious trouble to understand the piece. He has never worked with classical material before, neither he is a keen listener. Now the cuts, to my feeling, are completely unrelated to the story, and the scenes he has chosen don't convey mood well. I would like to help him somehow, but I am not able to sit and work with him on the piece. I am looking for articles I could give him to read, so he could better understand what he's dealing with. How many sections are there, where the tension is built, where should he calm down the video, and anything that could help him make a video clip that would really make the listener feel the etude while watching the film.

I would be very grateful for any suggestions to which sources I could steer him to grasp the piece more.


Thanks!
Mateusz


Mateusz Papiernik
My youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/Maticomp
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Re: Musical analysis and story behind Winter Wind etude [Re: Mati] #1936019
08/01/12 07:01 PM
08/01/12 07:01 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 22,258
New York
Mark_C Offline
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New York
Mati,
I don't know grin although if nobody else gives you real good stuff, I could give you some opinions on the aspects you mentioned..... but mainly I just wanted to say, great to be seeing you here, and I hope I'll be seeing you in Warsaw next month!

Re: Musical analysis and story behind Winter Wind etude [Re: Mati] #1936068
08/01/12 09:18 PM
08/01/12 09:18 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 21,899
Victoria, BC
BruceD Offline
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Victoria, BC
To the best of my knowledge from the reading I have done, there is no "story" attached by Chopin to any of the Etudes. Indeed, Chopin did not give descriptive titles to his works, he did not like such titles, and some of the absolutely ridiculous titles given to some of the Chopin Etudes are attributed to Busoni, the 19th century virtuoso.

If there must be a "story" to this Etude, it is one that the listener has to devise or imagine for himself; better that, done with sincerity than borrowing some one else's half-baked idea that didn't come from Chopin anyway.

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Re: Musical analysis and story behind Winter Wind etude [Re: Mati] #1936160
08/02/12 01:05 AM
08/02/12 01:05 AM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 403
United States
S
Serge Marinkovic Offline
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Serge Marinkovic  Offline
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United States
The story is the piece originally started with the first run but Chopin's Parisian roommate suggested he add a slow and short introduction. Chopin as is well documented did just that and here we have the Winter Wind Etude in all its glory.


Serge P. Marinkovic, MD

Re: Musical analysis and story behind Winter Wind etude [Re: Serge Marinkovic] #1936174
08/02/12 03:09 AM
08/02/12 03:09 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,651
Here, as opposed to there
stores Offline
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stores  Offline
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Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted by Serge Marinkovic
The story is the piece originally started with the first run but Chopin's Parisian roommate suggested he add a slow and short introduction. Chopin as is well documented did just that and here we have the Winter Wind Etude in all its glory.


What??? Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr......Ok, this is the kind of garbage that sends me outside to smoke and honestly makes me want to scream. It also makes me want to throw up my hands and say, "Why bother?"



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

Re: Musical analysis and story behind Winter Wind etude [Re: stores] #1936176
08/02/12 03:15 AM
08/02/12 03:15 AM
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 335
ScriabinAddict Offline
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ScriabinAddict  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 335
Originally Posted by stores
Originally Posted by Serge Marinkovic
The story is the piece originally started with the first run but Chopin's Parisian roommate suggested he add a slow and short introduction. Chopin as is well documented did just that and here we have the Winter Wind Etude in all its glory.


What??? Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr......Ok, this is the kind of garbage that sends me outside to smoke and honestly makes me want to scream. It also makes me want to throw up my hands and say, "Why bother?"


I think he was being facetious...

Re: Musical analysis and story behind Winter Wind etude [Re: ScriabinAddict] #1936185
08/02/12 04:51 AM
08/02/12 04:51 AM
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 116
N
natty_dread78 Offline
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natty_dread78  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 116
Originally Posted by ScriabinAddict
Originally Posted by stores
Originally Posted by Serge Marinkovic
The story is the piece originally started with the first run but Chopin's Parisian roommate suggested he add a slow and short introduction. Chopin as is well documented did just that and here we have the Winter Wind Etude in all its glory.


What??? Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr......Ok, this is the kind of garbage that sends me outside to smoke and honestly makes me want to scream. It also makes me want to throw up my hands and say, "Why bother?"


I think he was being facetious...

Maybe not. Found in wikipedia:
"The first four bars that characterize the melody were added just before publication at the advice of Charles A. Hoffmann, a friend.[2]"

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89tude_Op._25,_No._11_%28Chopin%29

I have no idea whether it is true or not...

Re: Musical analysis and story behind Winter Wind etude [Re: natty_dread78] #1936187
08/02/12 05:02 AM
08/02/12 05:02 AM
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 335
ScriabinAddict Offline
Full Member
ScriabinAddict  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 335
Originally Posted by natty_dread78
Originally Posted by ScriabinAddict
Originally Posted by stores
Originally Posted by Serge Marinkovic
The story is the piece originally started with the first run but Chopin's Parisian roommate suggested he add a slow and short introduction. Chopin as is well documented did just that and here we have the Winter Wind Etude in all its glory.


What??? Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr......Ok, this is the kind of garbage that sends me outside to smoke and honestly makes me want to scream. It also makes me want to throw up my hands and say, "Why bother?"


I think he was being facetious...

Maybe not. Found in wikipedia:
"The first four bars that characterize the melody were added just before publication at the advice of Charles A. Hoffmann, a friend.[2]"

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89tude_Op._25,_No._11_%28Chopin%29

I have no idea whether it is true or not...


Wait, someone actually believes this?

Re: Musical analysis and story behind Winter Wind etude [Re: Mati] #1936258
08/02/12 08:24 AM
08/02/12 08:24 AM
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 116
N
natty_dread78 Offline
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Posts: 116
At least A. Walker believes it...
The bibliographic reference is:
Walker, A: Chopin Companion, The, page 136. Norton and Co., 1966

Does someone have the book ?

Re: Musical analysis and story behind Winter Wind etude [Re: Mati] #1936272
08/02/12 08:55 AM
08/02/12 08:55 AM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 787
South Carolina
G
Gerard12 Offline
500 Post Club Member
Gerard12  Offline
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G

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 787
South Carolina
Originally Posted by Mati
........How many sections are there, where the tension is built, where should he calm down the video, and anything that could help him make a video clip that would really make the listener feel the etude while watching the film........


This is just my opinion. What you are describing here is akin to an aesthetic deathwish - it seems a little too dumbed-down.

You might want to frame this in the context of giving the "listener" an experience that is different from your 'musical' intent - not to mention different from your director's 'visual' intent.

The visceral effect is due to the combination of aural and visual. Do they really need to be in sync? No, but you need to have a talk with the director and ask him what he gets out of this piece of music.....and it better not be just some unimaginative, literal story.....

Unless, of course, your intented audience is to be a group of schoolchildren.

Last edited by Gerard12; 08/02/12 08:56 AM.

Piano instruction and performance
Re: Musical analysis and story behind Winter Wind etude [Re: natty_dread78] #1936332
08/02/12 11:27 AM
08/02/12 11:27 AM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 22,258
New York
Mark_C Offline
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Mark_C  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 22,258
New York
Originally Posted by natty_dread78
At least A. Walker believes it...
The bibliographic reference is:
Walker, A: Chopin Companion, The, page 136. Norton and Co., 1966

Does someone have the book ?

Yeah. Let's see....

Yes, it's there, and actually it's in a section not written by Walker himself but by someone named Robert Collet. The various chapters are by different people; Walker edited the whole volume, and contributed to the story we're talking about with a footnote.

In fact I did recall that it is said Chopin added that intro after having 'completed' the piece, and I think I read it in various places, maybe this one being among them. But I don't think the story always includes that a friend suggested it.

The quote from the Walker book:


It is interesting to know that in no. 12 in A minor ('the Winter Wind') the four opening bars were added later at the suggestion of a friend.


....and Walker adds a footnote that the friend was Charles A. Hoffmann.

Re: Musical analysis and story behind Winter Wind etude [Re: Mark_C] #1939304
08/08/12 10:43 AM
08/08/12 10:43 AM
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 116
N
natty_dread78 Offline
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Posts: 116
Thanks Mark. It is not that absurd, after all, that a friend may have suggested an introduction. Not wrote it himself, but just suggested it, then Chopin wrote it.

Re: Musical analysis and story behind Winter Wind etude [Re: natty_dread78] #1939416
08/08/12 02:36 PM
08/08/12 02:36 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 22,258
New York
Mark_C Offline
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Mark_C  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 22,258
New York
Originally Posted by natty_dread78
Thanks Mark. It is not that absurd, after all, that a friend may have suggested an introduction. Not wrote it himself, but just suggested it, then Chopin wrote it.

Good point, and it's a distinction that people who wrote about the story (like in that book) might not have not have thought of -- because it's ambiguous.

It could mean either thing: the idea for an intro, or the specific intro. We don't know which one was intended by the writer, at least from the wording in that book.

Re: Musical analysis and story behind Winter Wind etude [Re: Mark_C] #1948494
08/24/12 12:26 PM
08/24/12 12:26 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,286
Lodz, Poland
Mati Offline OP
1000 Post Club Member
Mati  Offline OP
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,286
Lodz, Poland
Guys,

Thanks for all your help! I want to sincerely apologize for leaving this thread for itself. I subscribed to it, and apparently something went awry, since I received no mail notifications about the replies. I was sure the thread left unnoticed, and it was so untrue. Sorry once again!

Originally Posted by Mark_C
Mati,
but mainly I just wanted to say, great to be seeing you here, and I hope I'll be seeing you in Warsaw next month!


It's great to see all of you here as well smile I drowned in work quite a bit, having less and less time to read the forums, but I am happy to be back as well. I am still not sure if I will be able to come for the whole competition, but I will try very hard to get together with you at least for one day!


Thanks and best regards!
Mateusz


Mateusz Papiernik
My youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/Maticomp
"One man can make a difference" - Wilton Knight
Kawai CN21 (digital), Henryk Yamayuri Kawai NX-40 (grand)
[Linked Image]
Re: Musical analysis and story behind Winter Wind etude [Re: Mati] #1948816
08/25/12 03:51 AM
08/25/12 03:51 AM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 516
Dorset, England
S
slipperykeys Offline
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Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 516
Dorset, England
Is somebody NOT believing something more right than somebody who does believe something?

"What??? Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr......Ok, this is the kind of garbage that sends me outside to smoke and honestly makes me want to scream. It also makes me want to throw up my hands and say, "Why bother?"

Why is it any more garbage than your post?

Then explain why you know best, please. At the moment there is more evidence that the original claim is the correct one.

Meanwhile here is someone who helps more than a little.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2xzbxXZ5fM

(In English it is potatoes to chips, the English eat fish and chips. French fries are for the posers and eaters of fake potato simulated substances served at mcdonalds et al.)


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