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I play on a Baldwin Grand at a University where I often accompany the Piano Prof. when she practices Concertos. The action is so light it is uncontrollable. So far, I have regulated the action with much attention to spring tension, Treated the key bushings with pro V felt stuff, and short of putting it on the hammer and action flanges, the downweight is still too light. I haven't measured it, but I could probably blow on the keys to make them move. I wouldn't doubt that the whips are just worn out, as that piano was old 35 years ago when I was a piano major, and NOTHING was ever done to these pianos but tuning when I took them over several years ago. I have just run out of ideas, and am leaning to pro veeing the flanges. Any ideas?

Thanks for the input

Chuck Belknap

I don't know how you expect Profelt to solve all your problems. It won't. The largest factors that determine how heavy we perceive an action to be are: strike weight, and action ratio. You will need to analyze these if you want to make any appreciable difference in touch.

You say you regulated the action - did you check the friction at the centre pins?

If it's a university instrument maybe it has had the hammers reshaped a few times. That would lighten the action. Depending on your regulation technique, it could also shorten blow distance which could add to the perception of a light action. Did you regulate to factory specs, or your own?

So, you are saying that the parts were worn out 35 years ago and you wonder what the answer is? Am I missing something here, or isn't it obvious?

If the parts are worn then it is futile to pretend that anything except parts replacement will move you towards a solution. (And I recommend WN&G parts).

I'm not so sure that worn out parts will cause the touch to get lighter, unless by worn out, we're talking about hammers that have been filed down to bare wood, which will reduce strike weight, and therefore, inertia. Freshly pinned shank/flange centers only have a few grams of friction to begin with, so at most we'd only be losing a few grams as they deteriorate. That said, it probably is time to replace the parts with WNG, but I'd want to do a ratio and strike weight analysis beforehand to know what changes will need to be made.

I would check the key height and asses how much of the hammer is left. Might only need to install new cloth punchings.

I have no idea how "only installing new cloth punchings" would remedy any of the problems this piano presents.

Chuck, you are a technician, correct? If you measure some up and down weights, along with a sampling of strike weights and an action ratio measurement, that would give some actual data to begin brainstorming possible solutions.

But I agree that the technical condition of the instrument is probably a huge factor. Are the school instruments not serviced?

Yeah, I've heard that one before!

I am sorry that I left so much out of my original post. The university has no money for anything but minimal tuning, and I have donated many hours to making several of these instruments more playable. In their long life, I am sure that no regulation or maintainance other than tuning has ever been performed on them. I was just fishing for some ideas that maybe I had not thought of to add some downweight, (like jiffy leads?). I also thought that this would be a good discussion post since the majority of the time techs have to deal with the opposite problem of diminishing downweight. I hope I haven't wasting anyones time
Chuck

David Stanwood's writings, e.g. http://www.stanwoodpiano.com/PTGMarch00.pdf?

Regulation would be faster and easier than adding weights. You have to do the basics before you alter the action!

My experience is that adding weights leads to a troublesome touch. However, if you want to try it, try the paper clips on the hammer shanks, so you can remove them if someone does not like them. ACCO small binder clips, #72020 or equivalent. Clip them to the shanks and remove the handles.

Installing jiffy leads is pretty crude, IMO. It also won't likely have a significant impact. I strongly suggest looking into moving the capstans, though before you do, you'll need to read about what that entails. Start by reading this. There are also some really good articles by Alan Vincent and Richard Brekne about action ratio in the Journal (1990 and 2003, respectively). One of the earlier suggestions to read David Stanwood's writings is a good idea, as well. You also need to do the following, before any work can begin: 1. inspect the knuckles (if they are worn, bolster or replace) 2. inspect the various action felts (replace if not in good condition) 3. inspect shank/flange center pins (re-bush/re-pin to correct friction if necessary) 4. polish and lubricate key pins.

Chuck:

Because you have not mentioned what the actual downweight is, I can only assume that you are going by the perceiced touch, and the perception is that the action is uncontrollable. I take this to mean that you cannot play softly. And because you have not mentioned voicing, I can only assume that this has not been addressed. As you should know, a piano's tone should change as it is played harder and softer, not just the volume.

So my 2 cents is to shape the hammers, regulate the action and voice the hammers. You may then be able to control the action and play softly.

One controversial thing you might want to try while regulating is turning the front rail pins to reduce that "loose" feeling in the action. In your case, what can it hurt?

The OP is playing orchestral reductions for a piano prof. during piano concerto rehearsals at a university. These orchestral reductions are notoriously difficult, and considering who he is accompanying (a piano prof.) would indicate that he has a high degree of playing skill.... chances are overwhelming that he can play softly.

In terms of the piano: he has regulated the action already (Though if parts are worn, the benefits of this are suspect. We simply don't know, unless he confirms this with us). The key bushings have already been treated with VS Profelt, so assuming it was applied correctly, and the bushings weren't completely worn away to begin with, it is likely that they are correctly sized.

While voicing can be an important factor in how touch is perceived, I think more often than not, when people are not happy, the real culprit is inertia. If you want to significantly change inertia, you only have two really significant ways of doing so: 1. change the mass of the hammer 2. change the action ratio.

Thanks Beethoven. You have given me two good areas to ponder. One of the pieces we play when I tune there, (we always reserve three hours or so to play) is the Mozart d minor for two pianos. I consider this to be a masterpiece of Mozart. Any examples of Alberti in this or any piece is really hard to control with the lightness of the down weight. The prof. is amazing, and plays at Carnegie each year. I accompany her on the Mozart Concerto #23, and a Brahms Concerto. It is an honor for me to play with such an accomplished artist. I am also studying again, (at 56) and really happy that I am back in that discipline. I am preparing the Schumann Fantasieschtuck, a great Haydn sonate (no. 20), and resurrecting the Chopin g minor Ballade (no. 1). I am also (much to her chagrine) working on a few Gottschalk pieces I like.

Ahhhhhhhhhhh! You know, you're playing repertoire that was written for pianos that have lower inertia touch, shallower key dip, and low or non existant after touch... What's the key dip on this piano? How about after touch? You might want to lower key dip (which will also reduce after touch), or reduce after touch independently of key dip by increasing hammer travel. Making these changes might make you feel more secure with the the lower inertia. I could be totally wrong, though, since I haven't seen this piano. If it turns out that you really do like a higher inertia, you can experiment with the action ratio, or you can do as BDB says (which takes less effort than my suggestion, btw, and is easily reversable).

reducing aftertouch usually makes the touch lighter, because more efficient.

you could exchange with the thread there : https://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubb...action%20be%20remedied?.html#Post1947407

No, it doesn't make the touch lighter.

The front and middle cloth punchings can wear to the point that the key height is low but the key dip is still OK.

When I reduced the key dip and aftertouch on my piano the tuner's instant reaction was the touch was rather light, just as Kamin says.

Subconciously, I suppose, we measure the work, force x distance, to complete the key cycle rather than the force itself. Because increasing aftertouch increases playing effort, people may say the action seems heavier when in fact it isn't.

A passing thought about this Baldwin is that there might be an opposite effect to the one Phil describes in the thread about the 1898 Bechstein without jack buttons. That's only one of many possibilities of course.