Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Who's Online Now
128 registered members (AnthonyPaulO, APassionatePianist, akin, atcsam, anotherscott, Alex Hutor, agraffe, AZNpiano, 36251, 30 invisible), 1,678 guests, and 4 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3
Re: Steinway Rebuild Costs Question [Re: Casey Dan] #1941886
08/13/12 11:05 AM
08/13/12 11:05 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,832
Tennessee
E
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Ed Foote  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
E

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,832
Tennessee
Originally Posted by Casey Dan
Hi Rafterman,

You may want to check out A Grand Guide to Buying a Used Steinway Piano: http://www.usedsteinwaypiano.com This was just recently published to help answer questions like the one you had.
Hope you find it helpful.


Greetings,
Be aware that this is about as self-serving a "guide" as you will likely to find. For some reason, the brand thinks that pricing their parts higher is proof of their superiority. I don't use many factory parts because there are longer lasting, more accurately made parts available. They desperately try to tell us that it is only a Steinway if they are the only ones supplying the parts. It overlooks the fact that the modern parts are not like the originals, and branding them "Steinway" doesn't make them fit any better.
The soundboards of aftermarket rebuilders have demonstrated far superior craftsmanship t the factory restoration,(I have sent many, many pianos through that department before finding much nicer results elsewhere).

Piano & Music Gifts & Accessories (570)
Piano accessories and music gift items
Re: Steinway Rebuild Costs Question [Re: Rafterman] #1941968
08/13/12 01:39 PM
08/13/12 01:39 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,638
Hobart, Australia
A
ando Offline
5000 Post Club Member
ando  Offline
5000 Post Club Member
A

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,638
Hobart, Australia
I felt like I needed to take a shower after reading that Steinway rebuild site - something very unclean about it. Parts reputed superiority was only based on price. Value of soundboard based only on the "fact" that you can only get a top quality soundboard by sending the whole piano to their factory. Value of a restoration based only on length of time - never mind that there may be rebuilders who spend far more time on a restoration than 6 months, and that the time they have it has no relationship to the time spent on it, so it's a null statement in the first place. All that talk of retaining market value because of the use of approved parts is really cartel-style behaviour. It's worth that much because it's worth that much, and it's set by the company itself and the dealers they have control over. Once people buy into this, the notion of quality becomes irrelevant - it's just about factory stamps and certificates.

Honestly, the more I read about Steinway as a company the more I feel uncomfortable about them. I feel like selling my family's Steinway K upright which lives at my mother's and making a fresh start. The artist program that can only be described as anti-competitive, makes me feel bad about seeing their pianos at concert halls now. The mere fact that we talk about them as "company A" as a rhetorical device in our threads. Are we all scared of them now? Will they come after me for writing this post? Am I going to be sued for defamation for holding this opinion, even though I own one of their pianos?

It's funny because as I was growing up, I dreamed of having a Steinway grand because it was just universally agreed that they were the ultimate pianos. There was no accounting for it other than they were expensive and could be found in concert halls and in the best homes and buildings. It just seemed to be an agreed upon fact of life. Now that I know the background of how Steinway achieved its market dominance, all that mythology is being debunked for me. I no longer feel any attraction to them as a brand. I don't honestly know how to assess their instruments anymore - and I don't aspire to own one. I don't even feel the romance I used to about the Steinway upright that my family owns. I'll probably sell it once my parents pass away - which hopefully won't be for a while yet.

What is a Steinway piano? Just an instrument, or a monolith of thought-control?

I just don't like what's happening here. Gives me the willies...

Re: Steinway Rebuild Costs Question [Re: ando] #1941979
08/13/12 01:52 PM
08/13/12 01:52 PM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,721
Danville, California
F
Furtwangler Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Furtwangler  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
F

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,721
Danville, California
Well, maybe now that they are under new ownership things will change.


Amateur Pianist and raconteur.
Re: Steinway Rebuild Costs Question [Re: Rafterman] #1941995
08/13/12 02:20 PM
08/13/12 02:20 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,456
Lowell MA
Larry Buck Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Larry Buck  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,456
Lowell MA
IMHO, Steinway as done a nice job on advertising.

Personally, I like the manufacturers, including Steinway.

Steinway's parts dept. is well run and responsive. I use Steinway parts in Steinway pianos and my clients love the results.

It is certainly a consideration with merit that using parts original to the manufacturer represents that manufacturers original intent best.

Meeting a client's expectations or better yet, exceeding those expectations has much more to do with "overall skill", which in my opinion, is the single largest "expense" in any work done.

I fear that going down the road of vilifying, leads nowhere.


"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."
Mark Twain

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
http://www.facebook.com/EJBuckPerformances
Re: Steinway Rebuild Costs Question [Re: Larry Buck] #1941999
08/13/12 02:28 PM
08/13/12 02:28 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,638
Hobart, Australia
A
ando Offline
5000 Post Club Member
ando  Offline
5000 Post Club Member
A

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,638
Hobart, Australia
Originally Posted by Larry Buck

I fear that going down the road of vilifying, leads nowhere.


But isn't that more or less what Steinway does to others with its own promotional material? Everything else in inferior, lacks in value.

Besides, this is a forum where people can express their thoughts on something. I am yet to see somebody on this forum who is comfortable with the Steinway Artist program, and lots of people who aren't. Likewise, Steinway doesn't just extoll the virtues of its own parts, it actively denigrates the alternatives. Where do you think that is leading?

Re: Steinway Rebuild Costs Question [Re: ando] #1942001
08/13/12 02:31 PM
08/13/12 02:31 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,489
B
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member
beethoven986  Offline
3000 Post Club Member
B

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,489
Originally Posted by ando
Originally Posted by Larry Buck

I fear that going down the road of vilifying, leads nowhere.


But isn't that more or less what Steinway does to others with its own promotional material? Everything else in inferior, lacks in value.


That's definitely the way it comes across to a lot of people.

Re: Steinway Rebuild Costs Question [Re: Rafterman] #1942008
08/13/12 02:44 PM
08/13/12 02:44 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,456
Lowell MA
Larry Buck Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Larry Buck  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,456
Lowell MA
I have enormous respect for all the manufacturers, not just Steinway.

Aside from that, I would submit my own work for inspection by any and all.

You are right, this IS a forum of opinions. I submit my opinions and ask for no greater consideration than given any others.


"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."
Mark Twain

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
http://www.facebook.com/EJBuckPerformances
Re: Steinway Rebuild Costs Question [Re: Larry Buck] #1942012
08/13/12 02:48 PM
08/13/12 02:48 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,638
Hobart, Australia
A
ando Offline
5000 Post Club Member
ando  Offline
5000 Post Club Member
A

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,638
Hobart, Australia
Originally Posted by Larry Buck


You are right, this IS a forum of opinions. I submit my opinions and ask for no greater consideration than given any others.


Indeed, about that we are in fierce agreement. smile

Re: Steinway Rebuild Costs Question [Re: Larry Buck] #1942803
08/14/12 09:06 PM
08/14/12 09:06 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 11,253
Philadelphia/South Jersey
Rich Galassini Offline
Platinum Subscriber
Rich Galassini  Offline
Platinum Subscriber

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 11,253
Philadelphia/South Jersey
Originally Posted by Larry Buck

Steinway's parts dept. is well run and responsive. I use Steinway parts in Steinway pianos and my clients love the results.

It is certainly a consideration with merit that using parts original to the manufacturer represents that manufacturers original intent best.


Larry, this is a sincere question. How helpful is today's Steinway parts department when you are rebuilding a Centennial? Or an 1890's A?

I like the people I speak with there as well, but they are not in the business of providing historic parts, at least none that they actually make. There are manufacturers who are and who provide better materials for historic pianos.

I sincerely wonder what parts you feel that Steinway is providing today that represent their "original intent" for many of their historic instruments? Am I misunderstanding your statement?


Rich Galassini
Cunningham Piano Co.
Phila, Pa.
(215) 991-0834 direct line
rich@cunninghampiano.com
Subscribe to our YouTube channel for great content every week:
https://www.youtube.com/user/CunninghamPiano
Re: Steinway Rebuild Costs Question [Re: Rich Galassini] #1942811
08/14/12 09:18 PM
08/14/12 09:18 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,456
Lowell MA
Larry Buck Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Larry Buck  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,456
Lowell MA
Rich,

In all fairness, you misunderstand historic restoration needs.

And you misunderstand what Steinway is offering.

No offense intended.

I get exactly what I need and everything I need from Steinway for my historic needs.


"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."
Mark Twain

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
http://www.facebook.com/EJBuckPerformances
Re: Steinway Rebuild Costs Question [Re: Rafterman] #1942847
08/14/12 09:56 PM
08/14/12 09:56 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 11,253
Philadelphia/South Jersey
Rich Galassini Offline
Platinum Subscriber
Rich Galassini  Offline
Platinum Subscriber

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 11,253
Philadelphia/South Jersey
Larry,

No offense taken.

Please explain to me what I am misunderstanding. If a phone call is easier, by all means call me.


Rich Galassini
Cunningham Piano Co.
Phila, Pa.
(215) 991-0834 direct line
rich@cunninghampiano.com
Subscribe to our YouTube channel for great content every week:
https://www.youtube.com/user/CunninghamPiano
Re: Steinway Rebuild Costs Question [Re: Rafterman] #1945204
08/18/12 09:03 PM
08/18/12 09:03 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,456
Lowell MA
Larry Buck Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Larry Buck  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,456
Lowell MA
OK,

Tell me what it is about the 1890's A or Centennial that you consider "original intent"?

1, What historical part are you not able to get from this manufacturer? If it is an action part, state exact dimensions.

2, What manufacturer today stocks any of their historical parts?





"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."
Mark Twain

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
http://www.facebook.com/EJBuckPerformances
Re: Steinway Rebuild Costs Question [Re: Larry Buck] #1945311
08/19/12 06:19 AM
08/19/12 06:19 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,832
Tennessee
E
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Ed Foote  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
E

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,832
Tennessee
Originally Posted by Larry Buck
OK,

Tell me what it is about the 1890's A or Centennial that you consider "original intent"?

1, What historical part are you not able to get from this manufacturer? If it is an action part, state exact dimensions.


Greetings,
I think the hammers are at the heart of it. Modern Steinway hammers are a lot farther away from their 1890 hammers than several aftermarket suppliers. If I wanted my 1890 model A to play as close to the original as possible, I am not going to find the hammer to do it in New York.
Regards,

Re: Steinway Rebuild Costs Question [Re: Rafterman] #1945989
08/20/12 08:35 AM
08/20/12 08:35 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,456
Lowell MA
Larry Buck Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Larry Buck  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,456
Lowell MA
Good Morning Ed,

I don't know what other manufacturer makes their own hammers.

Also, I am not aware of any piano manufacturer offering historical parts of any kind, unless it is used in current manufacturing.

Is any manufacturer of pianos today offering the hammer they made/offered 120 years ago?


Regards


"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."
Mark Twain

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
http://www.facebook.com/EJBuckPerformances
Re: Steinway Rebuild Costs Question [Re: Larry Buck] #1946032
08/20/12 10:07 AM
08/20/12 10:07 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,832
Tennessee
E
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Ed Foote  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
E

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,832
Tennessee
Originally Posted by Larry Buck

I don't know what other manufacturer makes their own hammers.

Also, I am not aware of any piano manufacturer offering historical parts of any kind, unless it is used in current manufacturing.
Is any manufacturer of pianos today offering the hammer they made/offered 120 years ago?
Regards


Manufacturers, no, but I have become a big fan of the aftermarket for Steinway parts. More accurate, more durable, and more consistent. The hammers available from Ronsen can come much closer to the hammers Steinway was using in 1900 than what the manufacturer will sell you today. I suppose they can make the case that maple is no different a core than the mahogany they used to use, and the felt density achieved with a soaking of lacquer is no different than the denser felt of yesteryear, and hammers that dwarf the originals deliver better response. I don't agree.

The same goes for damper felt; the originals were smaller and softer, and more evenly cut than the current offering. The key end felt being sold from the manufacturer is much harder than the original, and this hardness can be felt when the key contacts the damper, or the tray drops the underlevers on the the keys during play. If I want the softer felt for this, like the original, I have to go elsewhere.

Even the little things are maddening. The new version of the keyframe guide pin is square, which I can deal with, but the threads that go into the ends of the keyframe are smaller than the originals, so a whole, painstaking procedure has to be gone through to plug and redrill, instead of just screwing in a new pin. Damper wires recently have been made of something that is noisy and cannot be polished completely smooth.

It seems that the whole design philosophy of S&S has moved to heavier hammers, heavier boards, and longer action ratios. This seems to be accompanied by heavier plates. I wonder how much of this is due to trying to improve the response, or making production easier to accomplish. In any event, I have a lot of customers, professional ones, that make a distinction between the pre-war Steinways and the ones made since. Lots of little changes in the manufacturing process culminate in a differently responsive instrument. I am finding a market for the actions with lighter hammers and faster ratios. There is less margin of error, but there is a different response that artists like.

Couple this with the now availability of the WNG composite parts, and magic is available. We have a choice between performance and tradition, and my customers are going for performance.
Regards,

Last edited by Ed Foote; 08/20/12 10:08 AM.
Re: Steinway Rebuild Costs Question [Re: Rafterman] #1946167
08/20/12 01:53 PM
08/20/12 01:53 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,456
Lowell MA
Larry Buck Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Larry Buck  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,456
Lowell MA
Thanks Ed,

I am also a fan of Ronsen's work. Ray is a unique opportunity for all of us!

I am a fan of Steinway's current production. I am able to utilize current available parts in "antique" pianos where my clients ask for it. Knowing my starting point in the original action and having many options for going forward, I am able to achieve consistent results for my clients.

It does mean I must have SEVERAL ways of viewing my way forward in executing work on those parts. I have jigs for all of those occasions called for, make a jig where I need it and of course, voicing ??? must have an open mind there and also many options for going forward.

FWIW, voicing as I know it is rarely discussed, if ever.

I apologize for carrying on about what "I do" ..

I don;t see that Steinway is any different than any other manufacturer in the way they offer parts. In fact, that they offer a hammer that they themselves make is giving us an opportunity none of the other piano manufacturers offer.

My personal opinion is that this IS a tough business for anyone in pianos. I'd rather work from a positive point.


Last edited by Larry Buck; 08/20/12 01:59 PM.

"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."
Mark Twain

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
http://www.facebook.com/EJBuckPerformances
Re: Steinway Rebuild Costs Question [Re: ando] #1946387
08/20/12 07:40 PM
08/20/12 07:40 PM
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 589
California
T
Thrill Science Offline
500 Post Club Member
Thrill Science  Offline
500 Post Club Member
T

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 589
California
Originally Posted by ando
I felt like I needed to take a shower after reading that Steinway rebuild site - something very unclean about it. Parts reputed superiority was only based on price.


The other unclean thing about that was the mention of all their "Patents" -- when all the patents they mentioned have expired! That means anyone can legally sell replacement parts that have that technology, like "Diaphragmatic Soundboards" (patent granted in 1936, expired around 1954)



Robert Swirsky
Thrill Science, Inc.
Re: Steinway Rebuild Costs Question [Re: Larry Buck] #1946395
08/20/12 07:52 PM
08/20/12 07:52 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,531
Olympia, Washington
D
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Del  Offline
5000 Post Club Member
D

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,531
Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted by Larry Buck
Good Morning Ed,

I don't know what other manufacturer makes their own hammers.

Also, I am not aware of any piano manufacturer offering historical parts of any kind, unless it is used in current manufacturing.

Is any manufacturer of pianos today offering the hammer they made/offered 120 years ago?

Actually, quite a few piano makers make their own hammers. Yamaha, Kawai, Samick and Young Chang come readily to mind. There may be others.

You're right about the historical parts, though. With some manufacturers parts for a piano made last year can be problematic.

Still, I think Rich has a point. I've encountered several elderly pianos that had been remanufactured by S&S whose performance bore little resemblance to timbral qualities they almost certainly once possessed. Perhaps this is a variable thing as is the performance of their new production.

ddf

Last edited by Del; 08/20/12 07:53 PM.

Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon
Re: Steinway Rebuild Costs Question [Re: Rafterman] #1946445
08/20/12 10:12 PM
08/20/12 10:12 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,456
Lowell MA
Larry Buck Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Larry Buck  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,456
Lowell MA
Comparing re-builders to Steinway is a slippery slope.

I may not agree with you on who is in a position to criticize.

Thank You for mentioning the manufacturers that make their own hammers. Do any of these manufacturers produce their hammers from 100 years ago?



"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."
Mark Twain

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
http://www.facebook.com/EJBuckPerformances
Re: Steinway Rebuild Costs Question [Re: Larry Buck] #1946450
08/20/12 10:25 PM
08/20/12 10:25 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,531
Olympia, Washington
D
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Del  Offline
5000 Post Club Member
D

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,531
Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted by Larry Buck
Thank You for mentioning the manufacturers that make their own hammers. Do any of these manufacturers produce their hammers from 100 years ago?

You jest, of course. In most cases it would be difficult to get hammers made the way they were made last year. In some cases that is a good thing.

ddf


Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  Ken Knapp, Piano World 

Shop Our Online Store!
Shop Our Store Online
Shop PianoSupplies.com

Did you know Piano World has an online store, and that it's loaded with goodies pianists and music lovers want?
Check it out and place your order.

Special Purchase!
Keyboard and Roses Piano Bench Cushion Keyboard & Roses 14"x30" piano bench cushions Regularly sold for $79 to $100, now only $39. (while supplies last)

(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Bechstein
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways
New Topics - Multiple Forums
How much is this piano worth
by humble_pianist. 03/25/19 05:49 PM
Help Identify Music
by Shinobi. 03/25/19 04:54 PM
Help Identify Music
by Shinobi. 03/25/19 04:50 PM
What's Hot!!
PIANO TEACHERS Please read this!
-------------------
European Tour for Piano Lovers
JOIN US FOR THE TOUR!
--------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics191,127
Posts2,810,823
Members92,875
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

Sweetwater

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2019 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.2