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Kees wrote:


Now this is an interesting and profound observation. You are stating that there are psychological reasons for not tuning a perfect ET? I hadn't considered that.

As for starting another thread, you are completely welcome on this one. One of the reasons I started this thread was exactly so I could get the views of other technicians. I am perfectly content to watch the thread develop in whatever way it wants to.

Of course, if you want to start another thread on this, I look forward that, too

-Joe

I think resonance has more to do with degree of stretch, harmonic matching and overall balance rather than temperament. But that may depend on what we mean by "resonance".


I can't see why that is necessarily the case. I would tend to think the other way. Departures from logical organisation may be noticed more. Thats why I noticed your statement.

I would be happy to start another thread but have nothing to offer more besides the idea proposed that a randomized ET could sound better than a clinical ET.

To expand a little on the idea: Assume we offset all pitches by C(i) cents. i is the note number and C(i) is the cent offset.

Would random selections of C(i) (say limited to 1 cent) produce as pleasing an effect as selecting C(i) through some scheme like ET via Marpurg?

Nobody knows.

Kees

Chris Leslie wrote:


You are probably right; there likely is a better term than resonance. I'm just don't know what that term would be

-Joe

Just briefly, isn't consonance a good word for the harmonics sounding together as result of stretch, and resonance a good word for the sounds the piano itself produces in addition to those from the natural harmonics in the strings?

Withindale wrote:


It's definitely an improvement

Greetings,
I hear that randomized ET all the time. There are a lot of tuners whose ET is 'bout that close,on a good day, nothing far enough away from ideal to draw notice, (except from another tuner), and they enjoy a reputation as being a good tuner. However, there is another level to this art beyond equality. I remember listening to a temperament that Bill Garlick did on a Chickering in 1976, as a way of demonstrating how to make some uncomfortable compromises. There were two places that the thirds ascended a little slower than perfect, and there was a fourth/fifth that stood out, as well as a sixth trying to jump its place in line. We saw this under the microscope of his guidance,and were all thinking how awful that temperament would be,but he expanded it by an octave in each direction and then played several passages,(he was a gifted pianist). It sounded wonderful. Technically ragged, the piano "sang" in an ET that wasn't.

My preference for the more universal form of WT rather than just a loose ET is based on what I have found happening in the music. That is just me, and my customers take. In general, I have decided that recognition of temperament effects in classical music is like the Magic-Eye images that hide another, internal, image. Some viewers simply do not discern a secondary image, the thing looks like a big distorted canvas. Others see the dancing seal or whatever. Likewise, some do not hear beauty in harmonic texture created when during passages, dissonance builds and consonance follows, they only hear sourness, which is odd, because there is so much less dissonance than consonance in the written music.

Why not comment on all the increased sonority and consonance? I think the ghosts of wolves are still subliminally feared enough to cause frisson at the slightest hint of a third acquiring an edge. Possibly the worrisome pace of the world today requires a full 14 cents in a third to make us even notice it, with the result being that any intended tranquility of some lush classical passages arrives littered with buzzing intervals like a sweep of dead locusts on the plaza. (That is what a glass of wine and 4 different temperaments in one day will do for you.)

Oh, and one more reason for the WT's, a tuner could build a clientele that feels like they have had their ears opened and in their loyalty, are willing to pay the increasing fees an old worn-out husk of a piano tuner uses to keep from having to say no, so much. jus' sayin'..
Regards,

Kees suggests random variations from ET to break up beat patterns while other threads describe deliberate adjustments to improve tone and add sparkle.

If the aim of ET is to maximise overall consonance across all the keys, then is the aim of the adjustments to bring out the inherent resonances of a piano?

Joe, I wonder whether you will find that systematic ways of varying the consonances and dissonances of ET achieve more or less than paying attention to the characteristic sounds of each piano.

Looking forward to your report.

Whitindale wrote:

That is an excellent point!

Although it may seem counter-intuitive, I'm beginning to suspect that it would be the "systematic ways of varying the consonances and dissonances of ET." I'm just one guy here and I usually tune in ET. Plus, I've had some health issues, so I haven't exactly been doing a lot of work over the last 6 months. So, I cannot claim to have tried a large sample of pianos in UT or to have tried most of the various UTs. But what I have observed from my very limited experience with UTs is that the ones I have tried, the ones that have such a dramatic effect, seem to do so regardless of which piano I place them. (Especially the earlier mentioned Representative Victorian and Factory Tuners of 1844.)

I'm wondering if there may be specific treatments for specific pianos. Or, specific conditions. (Doesn't project well, sounds too busy in 'clinical' ET, etc.) It's just a guess and I most certainly can be wrong.

What would be interesting would be to see if others have the same experience. Then, there can be both a wider sample, and more ears on the subject, besides just mine.

-Joe

Yesterday, I worked on a Baldwin consolette-type piano. So, I decided to strip mute the tenor and upper bass and test the 1/10th Comma Meantone (using the offsets Bill provided) in the lower tenor and upper bass... where the wound and unwound strings meet.

There was definitely key color. But, all the chords I tried sounded nice in whatever inversion. I also tested in ET. The piano sounded fine in ET, so I left it there. But, I have a valid tool for when ET seems to cause a problem or seems to fall short.

I really do like what I heard in 1/10th CM.

Thanks Bill

-Joe

Btw, I think I am going to read up a bit and see if I can find info on the 1/11th comma meantone and even the 1/12th comma meantone.

Edit: I just came across this page:
http://robertinventor.com/software/tunesmithy/help/mean_tone_in_cents.htm

Edit: It seems that the 1/11th CM IS ET... or very close.

Edit: According to the site:


Edit: So, its possible to calculate even a 1/10.5th CM or 1/10.3333333333.... CM. Really infinitesimal variations of meantone temperament are possible Of course, there are limits as to what is practical. But,these variations can be explored to whatever degree one desires.

I decided to create some .wav files using both ET and using a very slightly modified ET. This is the information that anyone interested might find relevant:

The recording was made using the following device:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006X7NNAI/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8&me=&seller= The device was placed on a table about 4 feet from the piano. The lid was opened.

The piano is a Knabe baby grand manufactured in the mid-1970s. The strings are brown with rust (Yes, I'll get around to it.... eventually. ). If you listen, you will hear some significant false beating (Yes, I'll get around to it.. eventually ). But for now, all recordings will be made without improving the piano... for the sake of consistency.


The "Custom Temperament" is a Koval Variable Temperament v 0.25.

I decided to use exactly what the Verituner gave me without any corrections. The plan is to later tune the piano in ET also exactly as the Verituner calculates it. I want to try to keep things as objective as possible. All settings are default, except for the temperament. The VT already had 76 samples for this piano.

The piano was completely strip-muted and tuned chromatically note-by-note with the Verituner... twice. You will note that I grumbled a bit part way through on the first file where I demonstrated some aural checks. The piano does have some significant string lag and I needed to retouch one note which had obviously drifted. Sorry.

After recording the first file, I finished tuning the unisons and rechecked quickly with the VT.

Then, I thumped out a few passages. These are very short excerpts of a few pieces. The idea is not to try to do a recital here; the idea is just to thump out a few short passages... just enough to give the listener a sense of the the piano itself. (Besides, this is PianoWorld. There are plenty of great players here that I don't even want to try to compete with )

Later, maybe next weekend or the weekend after, I'll repeat this with the same piano, unaltered, tuned in ET note-by-note with the Verituner. (edit: I meant to say "tuned in unaltered ET."

Some_Aural_Checks_0

Excerpt_0.0

Excerpt_0.1

Excerpt_0.2

Excerpt_0.3

Excerpt_0.4

Wow ! why using a so short piano to make tests ? the break is not really well managed there, I suppose priority is given to the lower part.

possibly no really better solution, the basses are always to be tuned very compact on those too short pianos but I would not leave such high bneating at the 6:3 level (the C serie is not really optimal in terms of stretch

Plus Joe, you not serious, how do you want those "samples" to give an idea of the tuning ?

What I understand is that an UT is frauding the ear, so it does not have the structure that allow to feel the mistakes of the piano (or the ones of the tuning)
that is why eventually with an "old tone" the piano sound more pleasing.

when tuning in ET the more you refine the more mistakes are easy to catch by a non trained listener.

plus (sorry) "tuning" from note 0 to note 88 is not representative of a piano tuning , whatever precision you have, if the tuner does not use his musical and tuner's ear while tuning, in the end he is NOT tuning...

P.S Your unisons are fine, to me

Hi Isaac,


Isaac OLEG wrote:

It's what was available to me at the time... when I had the time and energy.


Isaac OLEG wrote:

Actually, I think you missed hearing the first sample titled:
Some_Aural_Checks_0 I really took some time with that file. I played octaves, 5ths, 3rds, 10ths, 6ths, etc. and I took time with the intervals to allow them to blossom so you could hear them. Those other samples were not designed to demonstrate the tuning; they were meant to give a quick exposure to the character of the piano tuned in KV 0.25. Or what we discussed above in the thread as re change in resonance, or change in consonance.
I was planning to redo the piano later in unmodified ET. Then, I would create another file: Some_Aural_Checks_1. I would also recreate the short samples Excerpt 1.0 through Excerpt 1.4. Then see if anyone notices a change in character, resonance, consonance, or however you want to call it.


Isaac OLEG wrote:

This is a very interesting point that I don't think I have heard anyone else make.


Isaac OLEG wrote:

There is a saying: "You can never step into the same river twice."
I do agree that to do artistic work as a tuner, of course the ear has to be involved. But in this case, I am trying to make everything as consistent as possible. I want (as much as humanly possible) to make the temperament the only variable, even if that means that there may a few less than optimal choices made by the machine.


Isaac OLEG wrote:

Thanks Isaac. That's the only part of this that was done by ear


Thank you for your input.
-Joe