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Knots, I've been implying it for weeks. Dorian mode is VERY important. But do you understand what that translates too? You might think it's just the scale of the tonic. It's a lot more. Listen to Freddie Hubbard's 'Little Sunflower'. Listen to all those chords in the melody. That's what Dorian mode means.

You can run voicings up and down the scale stepwise (diatonically) and they all work. Only works for tunes in Dorian mode. I've been talking about moving voicings around in steps (quickly), like two-handed Maiden Voyage voicings. It's tough to do outside of D Dorian.

You get a small taste of it in the head of So What, but if you listen closely to the voicings during the solo, you'll so that Bill Evans moves around. Again same thing as above.

This means there are some special skills required to pull this off in every Dorian mode (all 12).

And this is just dorian mode. All of these scales imply "colors" in the progression. It affects voicing choices. Yes some scales (modes) are so rare but obvious. For example, do you really need to think of a melodic minor mode when playing Maj7(#5)? (modern voicing thing). No. Just play the #5. Just like there's no need to discuss Lydian dominant as a scale. It just means #11. ALT just means b9/#9/#11/#5. Whole tone just means #11/#5.

If you don't play tunes with these alterations then maybe that's why it's not something you've encountered much. Look at a tune like Along Came Betty (Golson). That sucker is full of Alt Chords. But really it's all just chromatics so not a big deal.

This is why I don't really need to memorize Melodic minor modes. I just need to know what's altered from from the basic scale. It's very important for all improvisers to think in terms of 1-b9-9-#9-3-11-#11-5-b13-13-b7-7 instantaneously in all 12 keys.

This is also why two handed voicings are critical to really getting a handle on where every note is.

I must have not explained myself very well.

I quoted Burton and said I disagree.
Do you agree with his top 10 scales?

Which would be your top 10 scales?

I was responding to this. Maybe I misunderstood. Unless you are dealing with a Dorian tune, then no, thinking in dorian is not important. The advantages of dorian cannot be taken advantage of in one bar.

You're right, it's not that applicable to ii-V-I standards.

But it's true that there aren't that many scales to think about. What I was saying that beyond the 10 that Burton was saying, the rest can be inferred by the underlying chord. Knowledge of the entire scale is unnecessary. I'd say less than 10.

Phyrygian? I need to practice a scale for Lydian dominant and Lydian? Both are just one note difference from an underlying scale.

But of course it is (less than 10) X 12 TONES. So it's still a lot.

What I was saying though was if you just encapsulate every scale in the thought process of what alteration applies, then it's even simpler. And it's easier to think of melodically (non-linear) like with triads and other shapes.

Scales don't clearly show the underlying harmony. For example, a diminished SCALE is actually TWO diminished chords...

Hmmm...Bar 4 of head.

And then look to Stella on A-7b5 (Bb is played), etc.

It's pretty common.

JW, in both these cases the note in question (Eb for Sunrise) is NOT played on the Dm7b5 chord, nor is the Bb played with the Am7b5-- it is played before the bar. In the instances when a note is played in Stella that is not a chord tone (Eb on the Bbmaj chord bar 9 for example) this is just what the real book shows, but doesn't mean that Ebs are good choices on an Bbmaj chord. It's just short hand for people that already know how to handle those things. I think most people may treat the Eb in bar 9 as a suspension.

Bar 4 is a Fm7. At least that's what I play there.
Stella? sorry don't know what you mean, which bar is that?

Hmm I don't think that scales should show the underlying harmony. Harmony and scales are two different things.

A chord/scale relationship is about what scale works (sounds sonically solid) with what chord.

Ie: Lydian visavi Ionian on a Maj7.

From a scale I can derive chords . . . maybe we're talking about the same thing but from different angles.

I like his take on Light (bright) and Dark scales. His concept is like a theoretical Gaffa tape, it holds his (musical) Universe together and it has a Light and a Dark side.

I have to listen again to the lecture, this time more closely.
Get back to you about this.

Good point on light vs dark, that part is kind of interesting. Still, I think his statement should be rephrased.Something like, btw, some of these modes are really not common in Jazz.

>>What I was saying that beyond the 10 that Burton was saying, the rest can be inferred by the underlying chord.
ok, JW, so by this, I assume you agree with Burton's 10 scales that represent 99% of Jazz. And I still disagree.

>>Phyrygian? I need to practice a scale for Lydian dominant and Lydian? Both are just one note difference from an underlying scale.
Here's an interesting concept. What's underlying scale?

I do think that if you are to start playing scales and modes of scales, then you outta actually practice those scales with modes. What Cus is saying. However, I would tell Cus, forget practicing 1/2 of them.

Dorian?
you're right, I contradict myself there. Maiden Voyage is reason enough.

Phrygian?
getting bordeline.

Myx?
Where is that used? Sus chords maybe. What's a good tune for practicing that one.

Locrian. Still have no idea. By the lack of response here, I take it no one else uses it, so that scale can safely be ignored.

Aeolian, same as locrian. Some lose corners maybe.

When you think about it, modes of the major scales are much less exciting than modes of the minor scales.

What are the first 2 measures of Softly?

(warning, can of worms )

I also have a 2-5 in C- bar 4. Are you looking at the verse?

Well, we all have to play Corea's la Fiesta occasionally.

Wherever there's a straight dominant7 chord. There's several examples in the Gary Burton/Steve Swallow book.
Well if you're an old jazz-rock hack like myself you'd use it. It's great at fast tempos played on a rhodes with heavy distortion or even a mini-moog. Locrian is great for stacking major triads on a pedal bass.
The natural minor is used a lot in Nordic music, also in several ECM productions from the 70's. Check out that tune Vignette from Tales of Another (a Gary Peacock lead trio w Keith and Jack) that I recommended earlier, it's all solos on Natural minor (except one and that's Phrygian).

Yes.
First verse:
Cm6 Cm/Eb | Dm7(b5) G7(b9#5) | Cm7 F#7 | Fm7 Bb7 | Cm6 Am7(b5) | Dm7(b5) G7(b9#5) | Cm6 Am7(b5) |
Dm7(b5) G7(b9#5) |
Is what I play.

Thanks!

Probably the source of confusion. I've never played the verse myself. Maybe heard it, but I can't say I remember. To me, Softly is associated with Wynton Kelly

No, I'm confusing it.
When I mean the verse I mean the same as W Kelly's head.
Daaa da da da da da da daaa da da da da da da etc

He does do a nice minor bluesy version of it on the Kelly Blue album btw
Which is cool because one could do a bluesy C C Bb Bb | Ab Ab G G bass line to A part of the tune. Or even use the Tadd turnaround.
One reason I love these "old" chestnuts, there's so much one can do with the tune.

that's why it's a can of worms, so many ways to look at it. I do love the bluesy version.

You guys play the head of Softly differently but makes no difference. I play it like in the leadsheet. In this case, I just looked at the Colorado Book. Eb IS played on the Downbeat on D-7b5. Whether someone reharmed it or not, the issue is that b9 is played often and there's a whole paragraph in Levine's Jazz Piano Book with the debate.

What I am saying is that looked at closely, there are multiple chords in a scale. And needs to be known and judiciously applied. That's why I look at triad shapes. Each triad suggests a different harmony. But you already know that.

So I think of the scale less than I think of the triad harmony in the scale. The scale just prevents one from tripping up and picking wrong notes.

I agree with this. 9 or b9 seem totally valid to me. Strictly speaking, 9 is less dissonant, but both seem equally fine.