Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner Chopin Scherzo Op. 31 interpreted with Chopin's instructions

This is an interpretation done with a virtual instrument where Chopin's original pedal-markings and dynamics were respected and interpreted.

the piano sound is modified to sound as much as possible like the old french piano sound.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xFKa3mQDxg

I think that performance is nonsense. Clearly incorrect rhythms and incorrect dynamics within the first page. Silly that the poster of that video thinks his interpretation is more correct than most others.

LOL, this would turn Chopin in his grave!

Yah, I'm not sure how I feel about it, either. It is so obviously choppy rhythmically that it was difficult to hear the music through the wake.

you think it's too choppy rhythmically?

I think maybe it's because I listen to very old recordings and the old pianists were quite choppy compared to the new ones.

One of my favourite pianists was a friend of Liszt born in 1848:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7fDE1qxIkY



for instance this woman was one of Clara Shumann's (Shumann's virtuoso wife)best pupils. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGqqB-iVaRc&feature=share

so the sense of rhythm was quite different, partly because of the pianos, partly because the concept of music was different then..

the recording I made is made on a virtual piano

where do you hear incorrect dynamics?

The chords in measure 8 are played at almost the same dynamic level as the pp triplets that follow. Same thing in the next similar passage. This makes no sense musically IMO and is not indicated in the score. Some basic rhythmical errors on page 1...as much as I could listen to.

Why would you be influenced by recordings from an age when adherence to the score was more cavalier than it is now? Why would you not want to observe the timing as it is written?

Regards,

I prefer music which isn't limited by the mathematical subdivisions of the score.

music in the time of the composers wasn't followed as strictly as now. Perhaps this is because before 1860 or so pianists were only recognized if they composed.. many musicians composed.

only towards the late 1800's did the 'pianist' in the modern sense begin to emerge.

Saint-Saens says that in old music the way notation was written was not always the way it was played.. it was considered obvious at the time because the music community was tight-knit and regional.. sort of like Bluegrass or different types of blues are regional in style in the USA.

like in modern music and jazz, the phrase has it's own rhythmic logic. The composer is forced to use notation to write a piece of music but he may hear it as something quite free..

I am not saying the recording I did is perfect, far from it.. just that I tried to follow the indications for pedal and dynamics as on the first edition, which is the closest to the manuscript that I can get..

I have a decrescendo on the initial chords of that group of chords and presumed that the notes after were therefore lower in dynamic..

perhaps I made a mistake in interpreting the decrescendo?

as far as rhythmical errors, they were intentional... I actually programmed the entire thing on a piano-roll editor, so I chose to 'play' them as they are!

Why would anyone intentionally make rhythmical errors?

The decrescendo you made(as indicated in the score)is way too much and makes no sense musically. That is why no major pianist plays it that way as far as I know. The pp triplets are supposed to come in a a sudden change in dynamics.

wasn't the approach cavalier when Chopin wrote the piece?

That is a very common-sense way to look at how the composers probably did things. Like jazz, blues, folk, gypsy tunes, etc. there had to be ways of playing - conventions - that one really could not notate. Like swing eights. I always like to imagine that Chopin sat down at the piano and just played - improvised the work on the spot - and wrote it down, what he could remember of it - later. With no you-tube, iPods, CD, cassettes, 8-track, LPs, 78s, radio, I bet a lot of pianists never heard many pieces played, and so just tried to play the conventions that they knew from the chart. or took the word of a teacher who had studied under somebody etc... I am reminded of the Horowitz interview years ago by a Dutch journalist who said something on the order of things are different from the early 1920's and 30s; and Horowitz said, "You weren't born then."

There is a big difference between greater use of rubato/rhythmic flexibility and simply not following the rhythm and dynamics in the score. Why do you think Chopin was so precise and detailed in his scores if he didn't want his instructions followed?

Yes, but what is called an error today wasn't necessarily called an error yesterday

I view the score more as 'knock knock', 'hello, come-in', 'sit-down, please'

there are a lot of pauses sometimes 2 bars sometimes one, I don't think they were meant to tell all the story.. the time-element changes depending how you interpret it.

if you listen to more recordings of De Pachmann you'll find that he twists around the rhythms much like soul-singers do, but he had absolute control of it and he could get away with it because of the presence that he gave-off live, due to the strong interpretation..

regarding the decrescendo, on the first edition the decrescendo is always on the first chord, and not extended.. listening back I went from a ff to a mf, with the knock-knock figure being pp... consider that the dynamics on this virtual piano aren't perfect.. sometimes there are errors, but on the whole I like it..

as far as authenticity, I think that the sense of perfection in the time of Chopin was quite different than today.. the pianos were soft and woody (unlike the restored versions you hear today) and had little power.. not enough for a full concert..

Chopin said that the best things in music were lost in concert.. he felt at ease playing for his friends at home or in a Salon-setting, late in the evening..

I mention this because the atmosphere described above is one where one can play most freely, as opposed to making a show in public and being subjected to criticism... even by paying ticketholders who have little or no musical sensibility

So, although the recording I did does sound a bit artificial and could be a lot better, I actually like the way it came-out.. technically I don't think it's so off-base..

but then maybe in a year I might be more restrained..

meanwhile, listen to Carl Reinecke, who saw Chopin play and was a respected teacher and composer (on piano roll.. but the rhythm is unaltered from the original performance)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYEZir3HDJk

at the time, the Germans were known to be the most flexible in rhythmic phrasing.. today I think things have changed..

Wow. Everyone aware of how I'm always screaming about doing one's homework? Now you know why. There is more blah blah blah in this thread than I've seen in a while. I won't even waste my time with the recording, because everything I need to know is included in the wording of the very first post. Homework, young acortot. Just do it.

Now, here is a post which I find offensive..

I think I have done my homework, stores..

If you care to specify what you are referring to in particular please do so, as I am always open to discussion..

If you are not planning to discuss but simply planning to offend then you are not helping at all.

Be nice.. you may not offend people on the internet but you can criticize.

I'm fed up with people posting garbage and then rushing out to defend themselves from doing so once chastised for posting such rubbish. I don't have the time to specify, because there ISN'T enough time, but there are enough holes (and just plain bad/wrong information) in your posts that were I able I would ban you (and trust me you're not the only one). If you're offended then you need to grow up, because one cannot post a "performance" and not expect to be taken to task at some point. You THINK you've done your homework, which is the problem. Too often we THINK we've done all we need to do, but reality all too often dictates otherwise.

I think your argument is slanderous and little more..

you have not criticized the work but are defacing my image without making any logical arguments or criticisms.

You are calling my post 'garbage' with 'nothing to back it up' when I have already posted some arguments.

I have been studying Chopin's life and works for decades.

I am entitled to my opinion (although I may make mistakes from time to time) but you are NOT entitled to attack my persona.

IF you are informed in the matter state your case, otherwise stop posting these offensive comments.

Normally, I would not post into the middle of an argument, but in this case, I second this.