Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards Roland hp505 or Kawai ca 65? Help Please

Am having trouble deciding what DP to get, well sort of. Right now, am 80% leaning on the Kawai. I was 100% on Kawai until I found out that they are releasing a new model ca65. I've seen the spec and it looks like there's a few significant changes and would be worth the extra money over the ca63. I have tried the ca 63 and in my opinion the RM3 action is the best I've tried so far. I am a beginner and even I could feel Kawai ca63 RM3 action was close to the £50k-£100k pianos I tried in a shop in Central London. Am just wondering if the new action on the ca65, Grand Feel, I think it's called, would be guaranteed to be better than the RM3 action??? Anyone?

Recently, I have been looking at Roland pianos too, particularly, the hp 5xx series. Not really a big fan of Roland but some of their DPs get good appraisals, not only from people on this forum but from people on youtube as well. Just wondered how the action on the Roland hp505 (PHAIII)compares to the RM3?
£2000 question, which action is quieter? I know all keybeds make a bit of a noise but the RM3 action is a lot quieter than anything I ever played apart from the expensive pianos that I auditioned. For me, that will be the decider. I do not like the clunkiness of the keys and I do not like the noise that the keys make when they hit the bottom, and the noise the keys make when they return to their original postion when playing and that's why I have dismissed Yamaha CLP 4xx series.
Any help will be greatful. I haven't tried the Roland so would be good to get some info about the clunkiness of the keys.

Thanks

kangolboy, you definitely need to try the latest Roland HP models. Given your location, it should be relatively easy to find a dealer with a selection of instruments to play-test.

Best of luck with your search!

Cheers,
James
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ps. Completely off-topic, but will you be going to any of the Olympics events?

The RM3 action on the CA63 is a lot quieter, and softer on the hands, than the PHAIII action on the 505. I can't say about the new action on the CA65 as I've not tried it.

Both are good actions, just different in feeling and also dimensions (edges, angles, spacing).

Hello Kawai James, thanks for the reply.
Surprisingly most dealers I've been to, are not Roland agents. They stock mostly Yamaha, almost as if they are just Yamaha outlets. And the ones that do Roland, they do not have the hp 505 on display, they say they can order it if I made a purchase but I can't test it because it is not in the shop.
I was lucky to find the Kawai on display, had to search the whole of London to find a dealer that had it on display.

I might just stick with Kawai as it's the instrument I tested but would have really liked a detailed comparison between the 2 based on key action alone.

And yes, I will go to the Olympics. Got tickets to the 100m men's sprinting final.


Thanks for the reply spanishbuddah.
What action would you recommend for a beginner, an adult beginner? The phaIII or the RM3 action?

Does anyone else agree with spanishbuddah about Kawai's RM3 being quieter and softer than Roland's PHAIII?

Thanks.

Yes, but it's not that extreme a difference. They both make plenty of noise if you have to listen to somebody playing with headphones.

I made the mistake of playing a Roland HP505 after playing a bunch of acoustic grands recently. My god, what a disappointment! Acoustics are so far in front it's ridiculous. The sound was dead and lifeless. Action ok, but no real touch sensitivity compared to a real grand. The only thing the DP had was a nice price tag. DPs have a long way to go. I'm looking for a grand now...

Both are fine. I ought to say that despite the PHAIII being slightly noisier than the RM3, it's hardly noticed by the player with sound volume at a decent level. As ando says it's probably more noticeable to a listener hearing the keys action when the player has headphones on and so the sound is muted.

If you like the CA65 and the key action then it's probably a good choice. But as KJ says it would be worth trying the Rolands. I know that Rose Morris had both high end Rolands and the CA63 about 2 or 3 weeks ago in the same room.

And a nice size/weight.

Just remember to use similar volumes when comparing a digital and acoustic. It's amazing how loud acoustic grands are and we all have an innate bias toward liking louder sounds and attributing more sensitivity, richness, etc when sounds are louder. I basically never crank a digital up as loud as an acoustic, and the impression of unresponsiveness or lack of detail is partially an artifact of this choice.

Having said that, I do agree that digitals have a ways to go.

GV, I did have it cranked up plenty loud. I just found the HP 505 very muffled in its speaker design. I couldn't get it to sound like it was there with me - sort of like it was on the other side of a wall. Didn't worry me, I wasn't shopping for a DP anyway. I might have found it ok if I hadn't just been playing 6-7ft grands.

Yeah, makes sense to me. Just thought I'd put up a defense (weak, though it may be) for digitals. Everyone deserves a fair trial.

Thanks spanishbuddah for that place, I will definitely check it out next week. I've looked at their website and it looks like they have quite a range of DPs I could try out.
For now I think Kawai is still on top of my list, but if there any suggestions or alternatives to Kawai ca63/65, please let me know.

Wow, that promises to be an incredible event!

James
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Yeah can't wait

Thanks a lot Spanishbuddah. Today I visited Rose Morris and I had the opportunity to try out the HP503,505, 507, LX-15,RD700NX and RD300NX and Kawai ca63 and 93 and Kawai CS6, CS9, CN43, MP10 and MP6. I must have spent at least an hour and a half in the shop.
Here are my conclusions.

I started off with the Kawai CA63. I played most of the songs I know and even asked the sales guy to play something too while I listened for the clunkiness. Volume was completely turned off and it was considerably quiet.
After, I decided to test out the LX-15 which has the top of the range action on Roland. And I got to say, My God, Kawai have done a great, much better job on the key action than Roland. Kawai is much smoother, quieter and soft. I felt Roland was a little bit rigid and rough. I felt the difference straight away. I tried out the HP505 and 507 also, and on there it was worse. For me Kawai had the best action by far but am just an amateur(what do i know), I know some people love the Roland action but It's not for me as I think Kawai deliver more in that department.
In the Grand Feel on the Kawai CA65/95, I don't see how Kawai would improve something as good as the RM3. I really love the RM3 action but I really would like to test out the Grand Feel action on the CA65/95. If it is noticeably better than the RM3, I'd happily pay £3000 for it because I think it would be worth it. But then again, tha's just my opinion.

In terms of sound, both piano sound and other sounds, it all sounded the same to me. I liked the piano sound on my £120 61-key keyboard, so anything above that, well just sounds the same to me. Maybe it's because of my untrained ears.


Kawai James, would you reckon I wait for the CA65 or just go for the CA63? Will the action be considerably better in the CA 65? Apart from that, I should be getting my CA63 next week, or possibly the CS6, loved the look of the CS6.

Well, the 'RM3 Grand' action in the CA63 is certainly very well regarded. However, I also believe that 'Grand Feel' offers significant 'step-up', with longer keys, a longer pivot point, triple sensor, and let-off. And don't forget the CA65's superior sound and features.

I'm afraid I do not know when Rose Morris will be receiving their first shipment of the CA65, however it shouldn't be too far off. If you are not in a great hurry to buy, it may be worthwhile waiting to play-test both models side-by-side.

Kind regards,
James
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Kawai James,
That sounds good. But am in a little bit of a hurry. I think I will give it 10 days and I will then return to the shop to see if he has the new models. I could order the CA65 straight but to my preference, it might not be as good as the RM3 action in the CA63.

Well the CA63 that I tested is the actual one that I'd be getting if I bought it from him. He said he can get the new models CA65/95 just as soon as he sells the demo CA63/93 that he has in the shop. In fact he told me, if he sold the CA63 and 93 today, he'd have the CA65 and 95 by Thursday next week.

I assume you've had the chance to play the CA65 (or at least the GF action) thoroghly yourself. In your actual playing, did the longer keys and triple sensor make it a noticeably different experence than playing an RM3 piano? Just interested in your personal experience. The technological advancements are undeniable, but we haven't had people testing the two opinions and and saying whether in their opinion the difference in playability is subtle or large.

Apart from the polished cabinet, let off function, what advantages does the CS6 posses over the CA63?
I want to get the CS6 just because it looks better and theres a good deal on it and for some reason, I think it won't be far off from the CA65. As much as I think that the Grand Feel action will be a step up, I also think I might not like it as much as the RM3 Grand action.

Does the triple sensor in the CA65/95 really make a diference to an amateur, what are the advantages of the triple sensor as opposed to what is in the CA 63?

Thanks

Does the triple sensor in the CA65/95 really make a diference to an amateur, what are the advantages of the triple sensor as opposed to what is in the CA 63?

Yes, I found GF to be more responsive and a little easier to play.

Cheers,
James
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There are some minor software changes (e.g. the addition of an 'Auto Power Off' function), however other than these, I believe you've highlighted the main differences.



If you like the 'RM3 Grand' action, I'm reasonably confident that you will also like the new 'Grand Feel' action - possibly even more so.



As explained in the brochure:



So in summary, there are three main benefits:

- Improved responsiveness.
- Ability to play notes repeatedly without the sound of the previous note being lost.
- Greater range of expression when playing staccato or legato (because key-off speed is also taken into account).

Are these points significant to beginners? Well, possibly not. However, if you wish to purchase the best available, I would obviously recommend the latest models.

I hope this helps.

Cheers,
James
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