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Hi AJF

Boy, you are right on the money with this post. Many of today’s ‘artists’ are not musicians. Without the fancy stage productions, dance steps and pyrotechnics what are you left with? I would even venture to say, strip the music background away and you’d probably find that their singing voice isn’t that good either not to mention the lyrics.

I wish we still had Roy Orbison…

allthumbs

With regard to the Xbox vs classical music, I say only that people certainly enjoy being entertained (listening to music), but younger generations are being thus entertained by artists who are still alive. Beethoven, Mozart, and Bach are all dead and not producing anything new. Further, most people get an Xbox because they like to entertain themselves. They like the act of doing. But doing is not cost-effective in the world of classical music, unless you get a honky-tonker of an instrument. The top of the line Xbox costs much less than the top of the line piano. The rest, as you say, is your opinion and I respect it.

I would like to go back and look at number 4 a little, because I think the data points are a little skewed. I must say, I do not know what a "Tier 2" piano costs, but I am going to guess somewhere around $50-85k, with "Tier 1" being above that. (This is an honest guess.. if I am wrong, please correct me.)

We talk about families making choices between an above ground pool (approx $5k installed), and a "Tier 2" piano ($50-85k). Even an in-ground pool can be purchased for around $20k installed. That's still less than 25% of the cost of a "Tier 2" piano.

Let's talk about leasing a "beemer" vs buying a Corolla.
Cost to lease a BMW 328i convertible $459/mo. Let's ignore that for the average middle class income, this would amount to nearly 1/5 of that person's take home pay.. WAY too much for a car. But I digress.

Let's look at the Corolla/Bosendorfer cost...
New Corolla: approx $16k
New Bosendorfer (and let's only use a 6'1" to keep the cost down): $105k

Per month, that's $173.64 for the Corolla on a ten year loan with 20% down, and $596.18 on a THIRTY year loan (which I think is about 6x what any retailer would be willing to work with, but again I could be wrong here, too) with 20% down for the Bosendorfer. Total cost: $769.82/mo.

That's nearly double the BMW.

Let's also ignore the fact that 20% down on a Bosendorfer/Corolla combo comes to approximately $25,000 or more than half the salary of the average American.


Since the hard facts of cash don't seem to be resonating much with anyone, I would like to hammer out a couple more to see what people think about them:

Average American Salary: $41,673.83
Average Monthly Take-home pay: $2,639.29
(Let's double it to make it a family): $5,278.58
Average mortgage: $1295
Average monthly food costs for a family of four: $771.10 (sounds high, but put another way, this is only $2.14 per meal)
Average car lease/loan: $378.00
Remember, two adults = two cars: $378.00 again
Average 401k contribution: $358.94 (x2) (gotta save for retirement)
Average College Savings Requirement: $623 per kid per month if the kid is < 1 yrs old

Let's stop there and see how much money this family has left: $492.60 per month.

What they're paying for is the average American house, the average cars so they can get to/from work and get their kids where they need to go, average food costs so they don't die of starvation, average savings so they can retire before they die, and the average amount needed to pay their children's eventual college tuition. I've left out property taxes, activities, appliances, furniture, entertainment (like going to McDonald's for dinner), vacations to the town pool, misc appliance breakdowns (washer, dryer, dishwasher, microwave, stove, refrigerator.. you name it, they break). We're not talking about freeloaders, bank-breakers, over-spenders or priority-lacking people here. We're talking about the average American family's income vs expenses.

So, now I ask: how can this family afford to save enough money to even put ANY money down on a Bosendorfer (the brand introduced along with the Toyota Corolla), let alone be able to pay off the monthly payments?

Just my opinion since I'm not a piano dealer or piano technician. A Bosendorfer or a Hamburg Steinway or other Tier 1 piano in the 6 figures (after negotiation and discounts from SMP) is not designed or marketed for the average American family with growing kids, a mortgage, and car payments. There are more affordable acoustic piano options out there on which children can practice and learn, families can enjoy, and folks like myself can own while I go back and study piano.

The reality is, for the vast majority of people that play piano, their playing doesn't require a Bosendorfer Imperial.
The great news is, there is a wonderful selection of new and used pianos that don't require a 2nd mortgage or selling your first born. It may not be an S&S but I'm thrilled with my piano.

Derulux, everything your saying is right on. I can only say that $300.00 plus games and extra equiptment vs. a piano; You get what you pay for.

I probably have no taste. My budget was a fraction of the numbers being discussed here, and I got a small grand that my daughter is thrilled with.

LOL - I started reading another thread earlier in the day and commented on the great deal I got from you! hahaha

Do you have ESP?

https://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1933249/Re:%20Piano%20Shows?.html#Post1933249

Dave,

So true.

Rlinkt - I may have missed your post but what small grand did you buy for your daughter? It's wonderful that she's thrilled with it and congratulations! Post some pictures if you haven't already. If you did, I just haven't kept up. Too bad I have to frequently work weekends. Sure cuts into my practice and Forum time, but it does pay for my plebian piano tastes.

Anybody is entitled to be "thrilled" with his/her piano.

That this is possible in today's market at much lower costs than only 10 years ago, may be a sign of the times.

Plus an opportunity for cash poor musicians.

We've gone through this cycle already 40 years ago, same's happening again today.

Norbert

Oh yeah, I completely agree with both of you. I think the piano is worth the investment, but the caveat I have been holding my statements to is: "if you can afford it."

Now, there are pianos that most American families can afford, but they are certainly not "Tier 1" or even "Tier 2" pianos, as has been suggested. I merely hoped to point out facts and statistics that lend to the impression that classical music is "for the rich and famous", or at least, that is the stigma it has with many youngsters (particularly in poorer neighborhoods). And with the price of equipment, in this thread, a piano, it is not surprising to hear that resultant opinion being shared. What is surprising is to hear someone say, "Oh yeah, anybody can afford a Bosendorfer. It's not just for the rich." When, in fact, a Bosendorfer costs as much as a house for most American families.

No -- I haven't had a chance to post pictures yet. I am planning to do so this weekend, and a bit about my buying experience as well.