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I have an idea to consider. Whenever you look at Larry Fine's price lists, you have the MSRP and the SRP and the option to plug in a possible discount off of the SRP, but until you go into a piano showroom, you have no idea what kind of discount may actually be offered. In fact, I have heard of some dealers tailoring their asking prices to the particular customer. Each prospect not getting the same offered price in other words. I don't know if this happens much or not, but I have been told this happens. I understand that they want to let you try the piano as this will help sell it, and they can explain the advantages of their pianos while you are there, etc. This is fine. However, as fewer piano stores are available for convenient visitations, it is natural that the potential buyers spend more time online checking where dealers are, what they have, reading manufacturer's website brochures, listening to samples on YouTube, and so on. If a trip of several hundred miles is needed to try a few different brands of piano in person, it would be helpful to the potential buyer to know if the models are even feasible pricewise. Used pianos prices are almost always posted even on dealer websites as well as Craigslist, PianoMart, Ebay, and so on. This places the new piano at a sales disadvantage. My local Lexus dealer has recently adopted a clear pricing strategy where the real selling price is posted in the car window. There is no haggling. If they want to offer a special price to move a particular car, it is advertised on the sticker as well. If most or all of the piano stores advertised their selling price online or could give it over the phone, the new piano would not be at a selling disadvantage and potential customers would know whether it was worth the trip to go to the store. I know the piano needs to be played and investigated in person, but knowing the price in advance would facilitate the sale, I think. I realize that in some cases the policy is forced by the manufacturers, but maybe this needs to be negotiated by the dealers. If times are hard, it pays to advertise.

JeanieA, I totally agree. Kids need to interact with the 3 dimensional reality here on planet earth. I think the arts, sports, and yes auto/mechanical are efficient and rewarding ways to interact with our 3 dimensional existence.

Here in PA we have the PSSA state test that does include a science section. If I remember correctly there's even a geography section for 8th graders. And just to make the test even more exciting, last year a writing section was added for the 10th graders. The writing section only asks for three paragraphs but its large score percentage has forced our school district to adjusted the curriculum. Most teachers I've talked to feel they forced to teach 'down' to the test. They say they could teach so much more.

Chopin49, I'm not a salesman but I do know a few of them. If you were buying a piano or a car, at what point in the process would you want to feel it, sit on it, get in it, drive it, play it,etc?

This is not true at all. There is the Harpsichord Clearing House, in Massachusetts (http://www.harpsichord.com) which sells "used" and rebuilt harpsichords, as well as instruments on consignment. Many builders in other states have instruments available to play and buy the same day.

As for maintenance, I've found that while you have to touch up the tuning and regulation of a harpsichord on a regular, say monthly, basis, overall it's less work that what the technician does to you piano twice a year.

Harpsichords: the instruments of the future!

Perhaps one reason acoustic piano sales are in decline is that buying an acoustic piano is fraught with financial risk -- the piano business is second only to the car business in the opacity of the information the buyer is presented with. Prices are far more fungible than they should be. Maybe one reason acoustics are in decline is that digital piano prices are not veiled in secrecy, and the dealers don't engage in as much disinformation about them as about the acoustics. Likewise with guitars -- you can buy very, very good classical guitars online, and in every sales outlet the prices are clearly marked. The price of every new piano should be listed on the dealer's website. Anything else just looks like a way to screw the ignorant out of their money.

Finally, consider that the incomes of the middle class have stagnated for the last 30 years, and that in the heyday of the middle class many more makers catered to the prices they could afford to pay. I make a good middle class income, but even the most modest grand piano would require a home-equity loan to purchase. Pianos have become something only the wealthy can afford with relative ease (my eyebrows always go up when somebody on this site posts pics of their new Bluthner or even Estonia grands -- how the heck can they afford it?); people rant about how you're cheating your kids if you don't buy them an acoustic, but the only piano I can buy without trading the kid's college fund for it is a digital. That's the facts.

That's certainly the impression a buyer would get.



Yes, which is why I'm buying a entry level grand.

The way I see it, there ain't nothin' wrong with an entry-level grand piano that sounds and plays well...

Besides, there is always a better piano to be had, and a bird in hand that we can afford is better than two birds in the bush that we can't afford.

Rick

This post show a lack of understanding of the piano industry.

You might read https://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubb...ic%20of%20piano%20prici.html#Post909088.

It is lengthy, but eventually paints a good picture of the challenges of pricing in the piano industry.

Exactly!

I think both are the case. The piano is displayed as a luxury good. That is why there are no prices listed--it is assumed if you are even looking at it, that you can afford it.

With regard to middle class incomes, it goes back farther than that. If you count tax code changes, inflation, and wage stagflation, one could argue the middle class has been going the way of the dodo since about 1945. I don't want to turn this thread into a political/socioeconomic discussion, so I'll leave out the evidence. But if anyone would actually like to discuss it, I'd be happy to share. For now, I'll stick to the pianos.

I'm going to add a third reason: adaptation. The piano companies (manufacturers, dealers, etc) have yet to adapt to the information age. If their intent is to market to the middle class, they're failing. Miserably. In both price and information. In today's day and age, we are used to having information, and we get frustrated and go somewhere else if we don't get it. Even luxury goods are starting to show prices. Take a Ferrari for example.. if you Google "Ferrari prices", the very first link is a dealership that lists its prices for Ferrari's online. Piano companies will learn to adapt, or they will fail. A few top-end luxury providers will remain, catering to the wealthy who don't care what the price is, but the rest will fade.

SirHuddleston: I think the cell phone prices/plans/bills are considerably more opaque anything a car dealer has thought up, but people are buying into those BIG time!

I agree with posters regarding visable piano pricing. Please don't make me ask the price, I won't. I will find somewhere to shop where the prices are displayed, as that's a much more comfortable shopping experience for me be it pianos, groceries, cars, or appliances.

Totally agree. Twenty years ago a new Steinway L was affordable for me. I was young and invincible and had cash and what I thought was a very secure upper-middle class future.

But the tide turned and I sold it.

Now I want a nice grand but spending that kind of money in this economy gives me the willies. What if something happens? What if I lose my job? What about my retirement fund? What if I get sick? What if I need to buy a new HVAC system?

The Chinese manufacturers seem to be willing to fit the niche for those of us with Euro tastes and scant savings. But I still hesitate because even what they ask for a PE187 is now a scary sum to me.

Poor is the new normal.

That's funny. I read the post you sent me to and the most informative comment was this one:

"I don't have the book in front of me so I can't quote it verbatim but Larry Fine's supplement says that it is not uncommon for one customer to pay 50% more than another customer for the same piano on the same day at the same dealer."


So you're dead wrong. If it's possible for two people to pay a 50% difference for the same piano from the same dealer, the piano business is crooked, and it's no wonder people are fleeing it -- they can't afford to play games with their money any more.

He makes a very good point. Not even cars are sold that way anymore.

Burn the video games and buy a piano.

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Well said Mr. Buck.

For many, time practicing at the piano, or any musical instrument, has been replaced by hours of sitting in front of a screen participating in a fake, and often violent, world. After a while, it can, for some, become difficult to separate fact from fiction.

Music is real. It enhances the thought process. To make music is a real challenge not a fake one. I fail to see how blowing your opponent to smithereens on a TV or computer screen can be as satisfying as mastering a piece of music. Then again, I'm not 14.

In reading all these posts, it occurred to me that we are now beginning to see the results of many years of subjecting the arts to backseat status in our public educational systems. This is not the only factor in the decline of piano sales, for sure, and a stubbornly bad economy is a player too, but certainly the apparent lack of understanding regarding the importance of the Arts is also a significant ingredient in the recipe for declining sales...IMO.

It seems to me that, as more and more school districts foolishly cut programs for the arts, including music, we are insuring our own eventual decline as a society. It is a proven and accepted fact that kids who study music and/or the other arts do better with their other subjects so there exists a direct correlation between the arts and the sciences. There is much anguish and hand wringing about the fact that our kids can no longer compete with students from other countries in math and the science... well Duhhh... As more Arts programs meet their demise, we will undoubtedly see more instances of the family upright being replaced by an elaborate gaming station.

Perhaps parents should become more active and vocal with local school boards and demand the restoration of Arts programs. Perhaps even those of us without school age kids should become more involved as the future of our society is dependent on the product of our public educational system.

...and the average equity of a homeowner in the US is now almost non existent unless you bought your home 20+ years ago and even those folks have lost a considerable amount of their previously accumulated equity.

Money that could have been taken from home equity for repairs, new HVAC system, etc. now has to be taken from expendable income... money that could have been used to buy that piano. The foundation of our economy, at least for the middle classes, has always been the steady but gradual increase in the value of home ownership. Just a handful of years ago, anyone who predicted that buying a home would be a bad investment would have been thought a complete fool.

Compounding the problem is the fact that, until recently, the average working Joe or Jane could reasonably expect periodic salary increases to increase their buying power over time... but that too is no more, at least for most. No wonder there is reluctance to take on a 10 year debt to finance an acoustical piano.

Ya gotta have car (unless you live in a big city with great mass transit) but an acoustical piano... not so much.

Wow, from the original post, this thread has really gone in a number of directions. A lot of very interesting viewpoints.

I'd like to comment about the pricing of pianos. I know very little about how the piano industry works, I just play them. I do know that it can be a very confusing process for a buyer and many customers don't trust the sales people. I just purchased a Mason BB. The price on the piano was something like 69K which I knew was way too much based on what friends paid for the same piano. I immediately got them down to 40K over the phone. I ended up buying it for way less than 40K. Same thing happened with my previous piano - Yamaha C5. Price tag was 49K and I bought it for 26K. There were a few other pianos that I considered too. One was supposedly worth 100K and I could have purchased for close to a 60% discount. C'mon, there is something wrong with this picture. IMO, this is sleazy.

It's just plain economics.

"Best piano for money" is something people have demanded for a while but the pace has greatly accelerated as of late.

Involving pianos belonging to all tiers.

Some dealers still try to play by the old rules trying to get most they can [or used to..] while in other situation the buckle under and sell same product for considerably less.

It's not so much "sleaziness" but a stressed economy at the bottom of all of this. And dealer stupidity to make this for consumers a "guessing game"...

At no time has it been more important to have right product, right pricing and right customer service.

Nothing wrong with pulling out last few invoices for same piano and showing customers they're paying an "honest" price.

We often do.

Norbert

Which only means that the prices have been the same as opposed to "fair". How would any customer know which invoices you showed them?

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